Hutter v QS stands
Posted by: max in hampshire on 24 November 2001
Thanks
Max
quote:
I am assured by someone who should know that either Hutter or QS will do nicely. Has anyone compared them? If so, care to share your opinions?
Stands need demming just the same as any other piece of audio equipment. To my mind they are far more different in what they do than adding the next box up in the range to the system, they actually effect the way the system makes music not just how well.
The differences between QS Ref and Hutter (and Mana and Fraim) are all sufficient enough that each has its ardent fans. On the two you mention I much prefer QS Ref and say Jason H much prefers Hutter, we have both heard all the above options, who is right? (Well, me obviously, but…).
Go listen. Try to hear all four if at all possible. I know it’s a hell of a drive, but Audio Works in Cheadle could do QS vs. Hutter vs. Fraim for you (I took my own Mana!).
Tony.
Tony is right about the need to listen to stands because they all have a different effect on the sound and only you can decide which one is best for you.
I notice that you are from Hampshire, I live about 5 minutes off Junction 15 of the M4, south of Swindon. I have a Hutter set up for my main system and a Sound Org/Mana system for the one in the dining room. You are welcome to pop in should you want to hear them in an home environment. Listening in dealers is always artificial.
I do not like the sound of Quadspire but I like Hutter and Fraim. so you can see the need to listen to all of them before jumping in.
Regards
Mick
Mick – the bad news is that I will be coming off the M4 at Junction 15 heading towards Swindon late Christmas Eve! The good news is that I will give you a miss this time. But thanks for the offer.
Cheers
Max
--Eric
You don't say where you're getting your gear from, so.....
Phonography, in Ringwood, also in Hampshire, I think are agents for QS, Isoblue and definitely for Hutter. And, if you're unlucky, they might have a Fraim you could hear, too!
I'd suggest you give Phonography a ring, and see if you can hear the various ones you're interested in - best way to make the decision, really.
Chris L
Take a trip to Phonography; charming, helpful people with a good range of stands.
The only one they don't have which I think is worthy of consideration for Naim electronics is what I use with complete satisfaction - Base.
Alex
I am considering these quite strongly, what did you personally hear if you demmed any??
Cheers
Goose
Thanks also to those of you putting a more reasoned perspective on the subject of equipment stands. I started this by saying I did not think my proposed kit justified the esoteric stuff some on the forum enthuse over.
Plenty of food for thought there. Thanks again.
Max
quote:
Originally posted by Daveyp:
Don't get me wrong, stands ARE important, but not to the extremes that are often made out on this Forum wrt your base electronics. Some claims have near P.BELT overtones!
One way to look at this is as an option for tuning your system if you feel it's not quite delivering it's promise.
Still, I have to say that old-style Sound Org stands don't really have a place in even the most basic of systems.
quote:
You will also notice that generally guys who advocate the great importance of some of the Premium stands here have built up systems with top class electronics in the first instance, only then do they supplement older supports for 'premium' stands but it is law of diminishing.
"You talking to me"?? BFG!
But seriously, a really good system can only deliver when properly supported. There is definately a mental hurdle to be overcome spending serious money on racks, which normally disappears (mostly) when you hear one.
For a system which is already working well, there is a balance as to when stands become mandatory as upgrades proceed - i.e. when a stand upgrade is bigger than the next box swap.
cheers, Martin
quote:
You will also notice that generally guys who advocate the great importance of some of the Premium stands here have built up systems with top class electronics in the first instance, only then do they supplement older supports for 'premium' stands but it is law of diminishing.
I must be the exception then - my stand actually cost me nearly double my amp and speakers put together! Ok, I admit that I have the best value amp and speakers it is possible to own, definitely maximum bang for minimum buck, and I bought them second hand at a point where age depreciation had really moved in my favour (Nait 2 £170 / Kan II plus stands £200). I bought my stand new at top dollar (£680), which obviously doesn't help this equation. To say that my amp and speakers can reveal differences in stands is a massive understatement!
Tony.
Alex
"Tuneful and natural" is what I want out of a rack..and it looks fine, and is relatively inexpensive!
I have a similar system to you, so I may listen for the same stuff!!
Thanks
Goose
When you did this comparison something was certainly wrong.
Actually, I've never heard either so couldn't comment, but I'd be surprised if a glass-shelved rack (Fraim) sounded the same as or similar to a wooden-shelved rack (Hutter).
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Alex
In principle, I sometimes wonder if Mana have lost ground to other stand manufacturers by not developing their system into a 'hybrid' arrangement such as Fraim, which utilises both the non-ferrous plus the point-contact glass approaches. Certainly, to my eye, standard Mana is not pretty - handsome in a certain light in a certain room, sure, but not pretty - and I can imagine many people not getting as far as hearing it due to its appearance. Heck, it nearly happened to me... QS and Fraim, IMHO, win over Mana in this regard, although sonically I have yet to do a valid comparison...
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
"So perhaps Stallion really mean't to say that Mana (rather than Hutter) gives the Fraim sound at a lower cost?"
Not so sure about the lower cost thing. Multi level mana gets expensive. The fraim is more readily configured to individual requirements and is easier to add to as a system expands.
Stallion
Having listened to the fraim on a number of occasions 'laid back' is not a discription that jumps to mind. I hear a really open and controlled delivery without over emphasis on any one aspect of the music.
A non-ferrous Mana might make Naim scratch their heads over Fraim, but that's one product that's never going to see the light of day!!
cheers, Martin
Maybe someone can help clarify a few things for me. Firstly, we live on a rock with a molten, ferrous core. It's a very big rock with ferrous deposits all through its outer crust also.
These deposits seem at their most plentiful at the north and south of this rock. The magnetic influence that these 'offset deposits' have is to effectively polarise the magnetic field on the rock. Thus, we have a device called a compass which has a small needle which is deflected to align to the rock's magnetic/ferrous field.
This is a strong effect, omnipresent, you might say.
Some of us on this rock have hifi systems, some on ferrous stands and some on non-ferrous stands. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the fact that we are 'swimming' in a FAR GREATER ferro-magnetic soup than any stand in itself could ever generate evidence enough that the non-ferrous ideology is at best theoretical snake-oil, and at worst, ummm, sales snake-oil?
Thus, putting aside whether one would like what a Mana or other 'ferrous' rack does to the sound of one's hifi, aren't we getting all uppity over the ferro-magnetic equivalent of a drop in the ocean?
Surely this whole ferrous thing is a bit silly, like? I for one don't buy into it, although I do own an extremely non-ferrous preamp (which sounds exactly the same whether I stick it beside my iron-headed hammer or remove said hammer from the room)...
Discuss (33 mks)
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
quote:
Surely this whole ferrous thing is a bit silly, like? I for one don't buy into it, although I do own an extremely non-ferrous preamp (which sounds exactly the same whether I stick it beside my iron-headed hammer or remove said hammer from the room)...
I can really understand why there are some very sceptical views on this whole non-ferrous thing. I for one started off by (deliberately) being as sceptical as I possibly could, I don't buy into anything new unless it is proved beyond all doubt to me. Ok, so what have I learnt?
It is not a hi-fi thing, if you are listening to the quality of a hi-hat or the tightness of the bass you will never get it in a million years. I made this mistake at first and did not hear it. The effect of metal near the system is one of making music sound compressed and less free - it stifles and squashes things to a noticeable degree. In the early stages when you are learning what is happening you need to hear it in a clean system, if any part of the system is on a metal table or within a couple of feet of some large metal object (a radiator for instance) then the effect of say placing a hammer near the preamp will be very hard to hear.
It is not a ferrous thing, it is a metal thing. All metal does interfere to a degree, ferrous metal is worse than non-ferrous metal, though doing stuff like putting a LP12 platter near a non-ferrous preamp or removing the aluminium case from a 32.5 can clearly be heard. By co-incidence I have ended up with a remarkably non-metallic turntable, the P9 has very little metal in its construction, and TC with his Clearaudio is in the same enviable position.
It is worth doing. I now understand what benefits paying attention to the proximity of metal brings to a system, and now try to run mine in the cleanest environment that is possible without destroying my flat. The effect is cumulative, even if it is not possible to run in a totally clean environment it is worth doing as much as you can. Obviously my system is not totally clean, I only have one rack, so the transformers in the Nait, CDX, and P9 PSU will impact one another and the Tom Evans to some degree, also the aluminium in the cases of the Naim and Rega kit along with the rods and spacers in the QS table, and the arm, motor and inner platter of the P9 all will take their slight toll. These aspects are obviously beyond my control, but I can control where the gear is placed in relation to other metal in the room, and this in its self can radically improve the musical ability of the system.
Tony.
Your earth/compass argument seems to be that because effect A is very large effect A' cannot be important -- which seems like a logical flaw to me. If your argument were true it would, for example, be impossible to design an instrument for measuring electro-magnetic effects that worked on earth.
Matthew
quote:Tony, I've recently listened to a well Mana'd rig and a mega Mana'd one. 'Compressed and less free' they were not.
The effect of metal near the system is one of making music sound compressed and less free
Alex
quote:
Tony, I've recently listened to a well Mana'd rig and a mega Mana'd one. 'Compressed and less free' they were not.
I don't really want to go down this road again, but…
I am on about something completely and utterly different. I agree Mana is explosively dynamic, sonically free, it does many positive things compared to an inferior stand. What I am on about is very hard to put into words, I have tried many times but obviously failed, for me it is musical freedom, and for me Mana really buggers it up.
I went through a couple of very obvious stages with Mana, initially I was absolutely bowled over by how impressive, dynamic, detailed etc it sounded, but there is a subtle wall that goes up and prevents me from enjoying the music long term. Once I homed into this the stuff had to go. I am happy to concede that in certain systems and with certain priorities many may well enjoy Mana long term, though the evidence that it works with Naim equipment is becoming more and more debatable.
Things now seem to be getting to the stage that the majority of Naim owners here have dumped their Mana for one of the more recent non-ferrous designs, and the people who still remain loyal to Mana have dumped their Naim gear because they are not happy with its performance on that stand. I am sure that TF, Pig, Alex S etc either dumping their Naim kit or being dissatisfied with its performance is just the other side of the same coin to Allan Probin, Paul Marsh, Dave Cattlin, David Simpson, and myself dumping all our Mana in favour of another stand. A lot of the currently happy Mana / Naim users out there (Vuk, Mike H, James J, Rico etc) have yet to do the comparison.
Tony.
Currently I have projekt but have heard the Hutter and also now the Fraim, I have to say the Fraim is much better than either the Hutter and considerably better than the Projekt. It has a sense of unexaggeration and musical flow that is really great, and the CDS2 sounded even more natural. I haven't heard the Quadraspire reference but have owned Mana before (which I like incidentally and still use under my Linn).
Obviously other things affect performance like floor condition and set up and room, but I was pretty well impressed by the Fraim. My dilema is do I splash out on (a) another pair of 135's and take the SBL active (b) save up for a 500 or Naim's new CD player (c) get a fraim. In any event I'll have to do the dem. To support my system (LP12/Aro/Lingo/prefix/Hicap, CDS2/XPS, NAT01/PS, 52/SCap, 2x135, Pionner CDR) I am going to need a lot of shelves (about £3.5k's) worth!
So at the moment it's enjoy the tunes, sit back and wait for the next bonus and then decide!
Dev
quote:
I am sure that TF, Pig, Alex S etc either dumping their Naim kit or being dissatisfied with its performance is just the other side of the same coin to Allan Probin, Paul Marsh, Dave Cattlin, David Simpson, and myself dumping all our Mana in favour of another stand
I think dumping Naim boxes is an incredibly silly thing to. Each to their own I guess. No hifi I have heard makes music like Naim, from the Nait3 I bought seven years ago to my current set up, I have never once even considered changing. It's worth taking the time and effort to get it sounding right if things are wrong, and for me I had to move over from the Mana a few years ago to get it right. The funny thing is that I told you so Tony! and I told Allan the same thing when he bought his Mana! Having said all that, I respect and admire many of things the Mana does, my feelings is that the room and overall set up makes a bigger difference than the stand, so I am not that bothered anymore.
Dev
ps. Jude/Paul from Grahams have declared my system to be the best sounding SBL system they have ever heard, so there!