Hutter v QS stands

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It's worth taking the time and effort to get it sounding right if things are wrong, and for me I had to move over from the Mana a few years ago to get it right. The funny thing is that I told you so Tony!

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Yeah, so? Doesn't mean I have to listen.

Tony.

PS Dev, have you Andrew Weekes'd you Lingo yet? Roger did his and its a definite improvement.

Cheers,

Alex

regards,

dave

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PS Dev, have you Andrew Weekes'd you Lingo yet? Roger did his and its a definite improvement

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Tony, Having demmed the Armaggeddon vs Lingo, I have ordered a new Armaggedon (which is waiting for me at Grahams). I am actually busy CDRing all my 45's using the Lingo. The Armaggedon flows so much better than the Lingo and the bass is much, much better. Dev

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Having demmed the Armaggeddon vs Lingo, I have ordered a new Armaggedon (which is waiting for me at Grahams). I am actually busy CDRing all my 45's using the Lingo. The Armaggedon flows so much better than the Lingo and the bass is much, much better.

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The bass end is the bit the mod improves most - have you heard it?

Could save you a lot of work (and money)!

Andy.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

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It's very nice to have a pleasant discourse with you on the subject of hi-fi, rather than the usual shennanigans!

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Likewise Stallion, it's good to talk hifi for a change.

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You currently have an excellent system and there is a strong argument for just leaving it as it is and spending the money on more music.

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Yep, I think that's what I will have to do for the moment at least - London property prices and all that!

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I had a Projekt before I got the QS and, in my experience, it had a dampening effect on the sound compared to that achieved by using Fraim or QS.

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Could you elaborate on the 'dampening' effect Stallion, to help me understand your experiences better. The problem with home demming the Fraim or Q reference is that I can't do a quick A/B. I'll have to power down quite a few boxes (eleven!) and then re-set it up and then I will have the issue of warm up again, which will confuse things. I suppose I can do a A/B at Grahams as the stock the Fraim and QS Ref (and I can also take my Mana along as a reference point too).

In general my system sounds very open, dynamic, neutral and fast. It sounds great and very involving. It can verge on the clinical at times. My room is quite live (wooden floors) and is split level open plan (there is no back wall). The room contributes a lot to the result I am getting.

The problem is becasue there is very little rear boundary re-inforcement, the system needs a powerful amplifier to take full control of the speakers, as it very easy to overdrive the SBL's in this room. 10'o'clock and you can hear the amps clipping on the CDS2!

However, this is rented accomdation and we will be moving soon, suffice to say that a good listening room is very high on the agenda.

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My next move is for 135's, what gains should I expect to get over the 250?

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Stallion, to be honest, I had a 250 about five years ago and moved over to 135's then I have sort of forgotten what the differences were, but do remember being really pleased with the upgrade.

regards,

Dev

Being a Mana owner, and having owned QS in the past, I had an opportunity to try a QS Reference stand for a couple of days (not with any serious intent, I might add, just out of curiousity - keeping up to date with the competition, you could say).

I can therefore confirm that, in the main, QS Reference is very good. Whether it is better than Mana is not my call to make, as Mana is also superb. IMHO, common-or-garden QS isn't in the same league, but I can respect and now partly understand Tony's rationale for the move from Mana to QS Ref (not to say that I would do likewise).

What I can say is that QS Ref is certainly no lame duck. Anyone buying it in preference to Mana will still end up with a decent stand, as QS Ref is certainly in the same ball-park as a Mana low multi-phase installation (I was very surprised by this).

I haven't heard Fraim; in some ways I don't want to as (a) even if I did want to change from Mana, it would be too much money to spend on a racking system (I'd need at least 4 shelves, and my TT doesn't like glass shelves due to its aluminium coned feet - wood on Mana seems to be better than glass on Mana for the Clearaudio deck.), (b) it's too wide (!!!) to be a serious contender, and (c) there is no wall shelf available.

I think for non-ferrous weenie-boys, QS Ref is fantastic. Wobbles like a slinky with delirium tremens in an earthquake, but seems to work. It has a different sound to Mana which I accept some may really dig, doesn't really throw away detail (as I'd expected) yet somehow sounds smoother.

Big surprises there, then. QS can make a decent stand!

If I were in the market for a non-ferrous stand, I'd be delighted with QS Reference. It is, however, somewhat expensive - I believe that the prices have just risen to around £700, which is a lot for a three tier rack - heck, you can get 5 tiers of Mana for that price and be buying into an upgradable system too...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Did you get a chance test if your "plastic lunchbox with cooker knobs" is averse to your Mana or just the powers supplies in rest of your kit?

David

Saying all of that, though, this may be all down to the fact that metal spikes don't like to sit directly on glass, and as such necessitated the use of little plasticky discs into which the spikes sit. I have a feeling that it is those discs which are preventing Mana having its 'effect' on the TT. Removing the discs, and placing the feet directly on the glass sounded very sharp and edgy, plus the deck wasn't as 'stable' as I'd have liked. The board on Mana seems like a compromise, but it is all about trying things out to see what works best.

* My TT is normally at Phase 8, but I have sold a few odd bits and pieces to 'simplify' my racking and make way for a three tier on more stages rathet than a hybrid arrangement which I was using before.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

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It's also worth remembering that many manufacturers can also hear the effect and recognise that it is detrimental to the sound of their products, hence why DNM, for example, produce non-ferrous designs and have been doing so for quite a long time.

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Perhaps that's why I'm having such a lot of hassle with the preamp and its location - at the moment it hates to be close to any other item of equipment - a crazy state of affairs! - but once isolated, it sounds amazing!

Even more so since my own unit arrived and the loan machine returned (it was obviously a bit of an underperformer, as the new preamp I have, which shouldn't sound better, actually blows the loan machine away - the dealer is almost certain that this is down to a dodgy Primus external PSU). It certainly sounds better* than an 82/SC combination now, and possibly approaching 52/SC (although I have never heard that preamp before)

A nuisance, though, as the rest of my kit seems to be relatively impervious to this ferrous ideology...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

* the temptation to jump up to the forthcoming DNM 3D Six is going to be enormous, for that beastie is alleged to be astonishingly good beyond expectations... here's hoping!

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It [QS Ref] is, however, somewhat expensive - I believe that the prices have just risen to around £700, which is a lot for a three tier rack - heck, you can get 5 tiers of Mana for that price and be buying into an upgradable system too...

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I just checked with Audio Works and QS Ref is 160 quid a shelf. Considering that IMHO it clearly beat the phase 2 Mana Reference table I took for comparison (about 400 quid for 1 x shelf) in every area important to me, it ain't that bad value at all. The stand alone 5 Tier Mana rack I also owned (£700) was IMHO no match for the QS Ref in any area.

Jonathan:

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Tune, ferrous thing etc. Nah!

Actually, with someone like Tony L sugesting that there may be something to this ferrous thing - it is almost believable. Just that I've never heard anything like this in any environment.

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Thanks for the vote of confidence. All I can say is that I hadn't heard anything like this in any environment until I did!

Jonathan:

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Has anyone got an idea how this (ferrous thing)could be?

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Not a clue. All I know is that there is something to it all as many of us can clearly hear it. I think that the phrase non-ferrous is very misleading, as ferrous material is only one of a list of stuff that has a impact on the sound when in close proximity to electronics. I am sure that now with such a large amount of serious audio manufacturers paying attention to this phenomenon some proper scientific research will be carried out and published.

TC again:

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Saying all of that, though, this may be all down to the fact that metal spikes don't like to sit directly on glass, and as such necessitated the use of little plasticky discs into which the spikes sit.

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The Mana concept is based around metal spikes interfacing with glass, so I can't really follow this logic. Also most users who like to use Naim's CDX and CDS/2 CD players on Mana seem to prefer the metal feet rather than using the rubber ones Mana provide as an alternate. The Naim Fraim follows a similar metal / glass arrangement.

Tony.

We'd just setup my system on non-ferrous Base racks, and we were trying to work out why it sounded horrible.

Removed the Linn from the top of one of the racks, really not expecting it to help. Problem *solved*.

Admittedly, I tried it because someone had mentioned the effect a few months before on the conference (I think they used a 5m lead from Prefix to preamp??). I really wasn't expecting it to help, though, it was just one of those methodical steps you have to go through. Turned out to be the first & last one we tried, and I haven't touched the setup since.

cheers, Martin

You should make the effort to hear the QS Reference - it's an entirely different animal to the common-or-garden Quadraspire Vulgaris, which I owned pre-Mana and which was comprehensively embarrassed by the angle iron.

The QS Reference is, though I'm loathe to admit it, a very serious contender which really does live up to its own hype, and I can see why Tony 'defected', due to the fact that it really does play catch up relative to the original, 'boring' QS. The fact that in some ways it sounded better than my Mana at Phase 5 (my system, not Naim, heavily non-Ferrous biased and somewhat eclectic) was an eye opener, but the beauty of Mana is that you can always go 'up the ladder' some more by adding phases.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

So, if you want to go 'non-ferrous' to the n-th degree, i.e. non-metallic, then better go get that tupperware box and start shaping it round your components.

Of course, I thought all of this was just marketing shite until I heard the preamp and then realised that they're obviously doing something right to be able to get such a wonderful sound - although whether that's really down to its non-ferrous construction I cannot say.

All I can say is that I still believe that worrying about such things is largely futile due to the fact we're sitting on the cooled crust of a highly ferrous ball of molten material...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

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DNM claim that even aluminium can have a negative effect on the sound, so even using that as a material is much frowned upon by the Plastic People at DNM and the engineers at Reson.

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Anyone who has the slightest doubt about this might want to listen to their preamp with the lid off for a bit. The difference this makes to a 32.5 (the only amp I have tried) is massive. I'm not saying its all gains, after all the amp was designed to be in used in its case, but the change in sound really is huge. Don't try this with a power amp though as they use the case as a heat sink.

Tony.

Mana phase 5 (and memories of p8)
Great dynamics, sharp, clean sound. Forceful. Focused if a tiny bit etched. Wooden bodied instruments can sound a little surreal. Imaging is tight.

QS Reference
Dynamics are fractionally less than Mana, sound seems more relaxed and natural, Tony's argument about 'tune' popped into my head but I knocked it back on the basis that it cannot be so Bass is more extended. Counter melodies seem easier to latch onto (perhaps as a result of dynamics being slightly less etched). Tonality is better - wood sounds like wood and less surreal - but I suspect there is less 'air' around instruments.

In a nutshell, they are both really good. Enough to change? That's the $64,000 question, really. I'd say that anyone who has gone down either route has no reason to be anything less than 100% satisfied, unless they crave something that the other stand offers.

I'm being frank because it's the only way to be about these things; putting loyalties and prejudice aside for one moment, it is clear that QS has made trememdous in-roads into quality stand development. The QS is an attractive package at a fairly sensible price, but doesn't offer the 'upgrade' path, but will allow you to add further shelves if your system grows (mine is shrinking!!!). Mana is a tried and tested, known quantity and you can rely upon improvements keeping coming as you go up the 'phase ladder'. QS Reference may be benefitting from being 'the new hip stand', but I think it is good nonetheless.

The fact that I could live with either says great things about the QS Ref, rather than bad things about Mana - they are both superlative supports, and Fraim would have to offer significant sonic gains over these two to justify its price in my honest opinion.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Shouldn"t you buy into the whole DNM package including their stand then TC?

John..p

Actually, the Reson stand is very expensive and wouldn't fit half my gear. It also looks pretty ugly indeed, and rumour has it that it's pretty flimsy in construction (although I've never heard it).

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

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QS Reference
… Tony's argument about 'tune' popped into my head but I knocked it back on the basis that it cannot be so …

… Counter melodies seem easier to latch onto…

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Hmmm…

Tony.

Re read your post mate. By leaving out a word or two ("as possible" would do the trick), which seems highly unusual for you! the implication is that you could remove some ferrous material equivalent to the size of the earths core from your listening room.

Just trying to help.

Simon

I would be interested in your impressions of the performance of fraim. Have you had a chance to hear it while in the UK. Dev appears keen.

Make sure that p...s attachments are removed or this will 'swing' the results.

Vuk even suggested this as a distinct possibility...

Then I heard Mana again at Paul D's, and whilst more "flat earth" to my tastes, the tunes behind tunes thing - where each melodic thread can be followed with ease, just wasn't there.

Everything else about the system was superb, but the tunes just were not as I wanted them to be...

I concluded therefore that it must be the Mana that is wrecking the (counter) melodies.

Personally, I put it more down to the low resonance aspect of QS Ref. versus rings-like-a-bell Mana, rather than down to the ferrous/non-ferrous polemic.

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Welcome back.

P.

Programme material and all that - it makes world of difference.

If I recall correctly you agree that it makes no difference.

The track in particular that springs to mind was "American Pie" by Madonna.

Another one was "Mirrorball" by Everything but the Girl - this one went down a treat chez Larry at the Manchester Airport Show recently!

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.