Hutter v QS stands

Posted by: max in hampshire on 24 November 2001

I am nearly ready to part with money at last! I think it's going to be CD5, 112,150, FC2 (with speaker to be decided from a shortlist of two, or four depending on how you look at it!). I cannot see that line line up justifying a Fraim which is just as well as I can't afford it! I am assured by someone who should know that either Hutter or QS will do nicely. Has anyone compared them? If so, care to share your opinions?

Thanks

Max

Posted on: 05 December 2001 by Steve Toy

Notwithstanding "denial" - and I'm no expert in psychology, but Vuk wil be the next "defector"...

PS: This is a great thread for all the right reasons - as well as the best contributors. [you will allow me just this little smilie, won't you chaps?!] [smiling smilie...tautological loop, with a winking smilie to finish, or is it the other way round...]

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on THURSDAY 06 December 2001 at 01:51.]

Posted on: 05 December 2001 by Steve Toy

to merely "store" equipment.

My dealer only has QS Ref. in his demo room - he uses QS *furniture* stands for storage - chalk and cheese from a sonic point of view!

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 06 December 2001 by Top Cat

The difference between QS Ref and common-or-garden QS is in the construction of the shelves (recent releases have holes in them, which in itself must be a problem for anyone with little amps (like me - my DNM would fall through the gaps - when I tried QS Ref I used an older style Reference rack, without the holes)) and also the nature of the uprights (slightly concave in construction, different material I believe, not tightened as tight as for QS).

In other words, a very different (wobbly) beast.

On the matter of counter-melodies, I hate, no, am loathe to admit it, but I have to agree with Steven Toy on this. If there is a single area in which QS Ref excels, it's in portraying the 'secondary' musical themes - counter-melodies are much easier to pick out than with Phase 6/7/8
Mana. Whether this is due to the lessened extreme dynamics (cf. Mana) or some other reason, it is a difference and whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is again up to personal preferences).

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 06 December 2001 by Neville

Scanned image from latest QS brochure.
I think they are selling the Reference tables through a subset of their normal dealers, you need to find out whois a Reference dealer.

Posted on: 06 December 2001 by Duncan Fullerton

On the QS Ref how many shelves can you usefully raise a single unit to until the weight of the equipment starts to negate the wobbly factor?

I guess I mean to ask how many Naim full boxes per rack as they're all quite weighty pre-amps excepted.

Posted on: 06 December 2001 by John G.

How do you level a QS rack with something like a LP12 on the top shelf? Are the adjustments for level from the bottom spikes only?

Posted on: 06 December 2001 by Top Cat

QS Ref has levelling via the spikes at the bottom and also at the top 'decoupling' assembly. Common-or-garden QS only has it at the bottom.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 06 December 2001 by Steve Toy

Having levelled of the base shelf I find now (and I've tried it out twice) that when I get to adding the top shelf, it always comes out level when all the top spikes are all fully retracted, and therefore of identical length. They sound better like this anyway, IMHO.

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 06 December 2001 by Steve Toy

So peops,

It does seem that QS reference may well be the best stand there is for musicality!

I can't help but feel rather glad about that.

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 07 December 2001 by Martin Payne

quote:
Originally posted by Steven Toy:

It does seem that QS reference may well be the best stand there is for musicality!

Steven,

I've never heard the QSR, but I have to say that AF Starbase seems to be highly musical, in my limited experience.

I query whether the Fraim is any better in this regard. (Or just possibly, is it as good - but how could one meaningfully compare a 250/SBL to a 135/Isobarik system in this regard?)

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 07 December 2001 by Top Cat

Paul,

Who said I was getting a QS Ref? I'm still on my three tier Mana rack!

I might get a QS ref wallshelf*, though, for the turntable, but I've not seen any prices to know if this can be done yet...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

* subject to some VERY strong wallbolts!

Posted on: 07 December 2001 by Peter Stockwell

c. £235

Peter

Posted on: 07 December 2001 by Top Cat

The standard QS is a bit like a lame dog, you want to love it, you see its sad eyes looking at you and you feel a sort of sympathy, but ultimately you realise that the best option is to put it down.

The QS Ref is a much more capable dog^H^H^Hstand...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 07 December 2001 by Steve Toy

Somebody somewhere is playing a tune on a guitar, a piano, some other keyboard, a xylophone, glockenspiel some kind of woodwind instrument. It is kind of in the background, but whatever else happens in the musical piece, it just doesn't go away.

There can be several of these melodies weaving their way through a piece of music at any given time. I want them all.

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 07 December 2001 by Steve Toy

Who told you that?

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 07 December 2001 by Top Cat

The countermelodies seem more 'significant' with the QS Ref. Mana seems to emphasise the main melody, or attract your attention away from the rest - don't know which - so it's true what he says. I didn't believe it at first either.

Saying that, though, as a Mana user I am fairly biased toward Mana and so I think I'm acting impartially in this assessment.

Mana still rocks, though!

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 07 December 2001 by Top Cat

Mana, to me, is wonderful (and Phase 8 is doubly so!), but on actually taking the time to go and hear the QS Ref with my own kit, I realised that actually, it is rather good (and I so wanted to come on here and slag it, as a Mana fan, I really did!).

So, as I;m a pretty honest guy I have to recommend it, in spite of my own personal choices.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 07 December 2001 by Mick P

Chaps

The appearance of the Quadspire is bloody awful. Its like some scrawny cheap 1950's tea trolley.

I refuse to believe that anyone would even think of buying the monstosity. JW must be heaving a sigh of relief, its almost as bad as Mana.

I must admit, I am surprised that a man of taste such as Stallion would give the thing house space.

If you appreciate style and beauty, its got to be a choice between Fraim, Hutter or Ash Design.

Amazed

Mick

Posted on: 07 December 2001 by Steve Toy

Jonathan,

When I was at your place, I did mention the fact that a certain melody was missing in a Madonna track. Indeed, there was no difference between either rack in this regard.

However, when I returned home things sounded distinctly different - more tuneful.

It was then Vuk who suggested to me that the Celestion A3s may be somewhat choon challenged, and indeed they do seem to have a "dark" kind of sound to my ears.

At Paul D's, I heard those wonderful Dynaudios - which are as forward as forward can be, and yet the tune was still a little subdued, so I concluded that the QS Ref was obviously superior to Mana for being able to separate melodic threads, and also play out each individual note to the full.

So to get a tuneful sound - where the envelope of each and every note is fully exploited by the system, allowing the pitch of notes to be clearly distinguished by the listener, who, in turn may then hum with the tune also, you need tuneful electronics: Naim, Linn, Densen and Rega all seem to fall into this category, a QS Ref. stand, tuneful speakers - the list is endless, and decent mains provision.

Tunefulness is not an absolute - you get more, or less of it - as opposed to having it all, or not having it at all. The CDX, for example is more tuneful than a CD5, IMHO.

One of the best tests for it is the door chimes at the start of Paul Mc Cartney's Someone's knocking at the door - then you may hear what I mean.

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on SATURDAY 08 December 2001 at 03:28.]

Posted on: 08 December 2001 by P

How much longer do we have to put up with this?

My 10 cents/tuppence

Firstly.

I have never heard The Quadraspire Ref. I wasn't allowed to.

BWOE - When it first came out onto the market my dealer,at the time, had one lurking in the corner of his showroom as well as Mana, Hutter and Fraim. He refused to let me hear the Quadraspire saying that they thought it was so bad they were sending it back and refusing to stock it!
Now at the time I was looking for a new stand to replace the Base system so I took his word on this.

Upon visual inspection of the Quadraspire I thought it was quite possibly the ugliest looking thing I'd ever seen. Uglier than the standard Quadraspire by a long long way. Like some kind of art students ill gotten design concept.

Upon actually touching the thing and seeing it fall around, like one of those 1960's plastic toys that collapse and spring upright again when you press the base, I just laughed. Out Loud. You couldn't seriously think about putting a suspended chassis on that?

Personally I really don't care what it sounds like. I never liked the original either.

Just my humble opinion of course.

I'm gonna get me some Mana.

Bring on the Steel and Glass!!!

Posted on: 08 December 2001 by Top Cat

Might I suggest that you actually listen to the QS Ref before slagging it? I mean, I have a Phase 8 Mana installation under some fairly special kit, and it's excellent. However, being perfectly fair, the QS Ref is not far off its performance, so it seems to me a little unfair to dismiss it on the opinion and prejudice of what sounds to me to be a pretty arrogant dealer?

Kit should be demo'd - I didn't think it would work either but it does. Aesthetically, I think it is better than Mana, but then aesthetics is a personal taste thing, and not enough in itself to make one want to change.

As a Mana user, I'm firmly behind the Mana system, but it would be both ignorant and incredibly naive of me to decry QS Ref as 'rubbish' when I've heard it for me own ears. Either you are ignorant or pretty naive to dismiss it as rubbish on the basis of what your dealer says...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 08 December 2001 by P

Ignorant or Naiive as it maybe.

I thought it was amusing.

Can't seem to remember calling it rubbish though?

Good to see someone like you keeping an open mind.

As far as "valued" opinions go perhaps when you've heard the Fraim against Hutter against Mana against Quadraspire using an LP12/Aro/Geddon/Tekaitora / and CDS2 as a source I might trust your opinion rather than a very experienced dealers.

BTW - got any good tips for securing a Mana wallshelf?

Tata

Posted on: 08 December 2001 by Steve Toy

I do believe TC has.

Trial and error usually produces the best results, and I learned from a similar accident with my Rega wallshelf which happened about a year ago.

Sorry TC, I'll let you speak for your self!

So far this thread has been a very civilised discussion. Let it stay that way and die a peaceful death. Please don't spoil that by trolling.

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Posted on: 08 December 2001 by Ian Dales

Steven,

I think it's very good of you to wax lyrical about the Quadraspire Reference but to bestoe upon it the title of ultimate tune table is open to debate.

My experiences of this contraption have been far from pleasant. It does seperate out all the different melodic threads into a piece that one could hardly call musical. Timing is achieved by exposing leading edge detail to such a point that any flow the piece may have had is reduced to a digital stop/start analitical catastrophe. This is something that the original Quadraspire table did not "achive" nor have I heared any other table impose this character on Naim electronics be it Hutter, Mana, Isoblue or Fraim.

Obviously this trait may be missing in your system and does not appear to arise in certain other user's systems, but one cannot help but notice that you do use alternative amps and speakers, thus perhaps providing an explanation for your satisfaction with this table.

It is becoming apparently obvious that quite a few people with full Naim systems just don't get on with Quadraspire Reference, which can only lead me to conclude that you are perhaps looking for something slightly different to what Naim are trying to achieve, as it seems are most of the people that actually like the reference.

You own it and like it, I have no problems with that and I am happy to see you enjoy your music, however I think that these areas need to be clarified if advice is to be given to someone who is unable to hear the support before buying it. If that was the case, I would be tempted to advise the buyer to go for Isoblue due to it's cost and performance, certainly in the context of an all Naim system.

Ian.

Posted on: 08 December 2001 by Steve Toy

Fair comment, except that I have heard the QS Reference supporting all-Naim systems, and I originally bought it on the basis of such demonstrations.

QS Ref. not only plays the tunes, it also gives a certain airiness to the sound and a sense of flow which is entirely at odds, IMHO, with your analysis that

"Timing is achieved by exposing leading edge detail to such a point that any flow the piece may have had is reduced to a digital stop/start analitical catastrophe."

To my ears the fullness of notes, or other musical phenomena, following leading edges is highlighted, as is a natural sense of decay into space.

One thing the QS Ref does do though, it will mercilessly show up imbalances in your system hierarchy.

For example, the CDX/102/Hi/250/Credos combination made my ears bleed - and my findings in this context concurred with yours above.

When I ditched the 102 for an 82, it sounded sublime.

Also, 5 Series components on the QS Ref. worked just great.

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.