Hutter v QS stands

This as far as I can see only serves to prove the point that it is analytical and seems to wreck musical flow by producing an artifically enhanced leading edge prior to any decay of a note. This phenomenom seems to be highlighted further by the use of the Music Works leads.

We'll just have to accept that we hear things differently.

Ian.

Cheers,

Steve.

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

If ever you come down my way, I'd be happy to demonstrate it in my system.

We could go and get rat-arsed as well!

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

It's something that simply shouldn't happen, but it does. When I tried the QS Ref, it certainly changed the tonality of the system over Mana - not necessarily better nor worse, but different - and one thing I noticed was this shift between principal melody to 'overall tune'. Heck, if only I could find a way to describe it. My system is playing right now; I've a deck beyond the LP12 someone mentioned above, which does the timing thing better, so anyone querying the quality of gear I have sitting on Mana and have tried on QS Ref is basically deluding themselves.

I'm back to the Mana now; I've just put some custom-made Mana stands under my speakers and that was a tremendous improvement - but in a different way. The best way I can really portray the differences in Mana versus QS Ref is to make the analogy between different grades of b&w photographic paper: Mana is perhaps a grade IV and QS Ref is a grade II - equally valid, but each has its own way of portraying an image (cf. music) which may or may not be better under a given musical circumstance.

Fraim is to me a bit of a red-herring: it's too expensive, I don't think it looks significantly better than QS Ref and it's also not available in a wall-shelf, which is the reason why I tried the QS Ref - my TT seems to prefer a non-glass surface. Whilst I am willing to believe Fraim may be a superb alternative, it is not compatible with my requirements at this point in time and therefore didn't enter into the equation. That's the way the cookie crumbles.

Getting back to our printing-grade analogy - QS Ref seems to present a less distinct - etched? - portrayal of principal melodies, a function analagous to the contrast between the shades of black->grey->white on a B&W print. Mana seems to present a greater gradation of tone, with a musically 'contrastier' sound.

Why am I writing all of this? Because it dawned on me that in some ways I'd been hiding my head in the sand regarding alternative stands. I refused to budge from the Mana-is-the-only-choice ideology, but at least had the willingness to check things out for myself. My gear still uses Mana, although I have reorganised it as I now feel certain equipment is more compatible with Mana than other items. In checking out other stands, I realised that the 'loyalty' to Mana had clouded my judgement, and that QS Ref is a decent stand after all. As I always like to tell it straight, I feel compelled to relate this to you. If you can't hack it, then perhaps you too are as blinkered as I was.

I'm not saying that QS Ref is better - I'm saying that it's different and excels in different areas. It's a little bit like a fibre print at Grade II to Mana's resin print at Grade IV - subtle, but preferential differences.

To kid oneself that the difference is more than that is just silly. I own Mana, I don't own QS Ref. I am impartial, even a little biased towards Mana, but I also believe in singing the praises of that which impresses me, and QS Ref was one such product.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

quote:

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Originally posted by Top Cat:
It's kinda difficult to explain, but I have heard it and I don't really understand it either.

It's something that simply shouldn't happen, but it does....and one thing I noticed was this shift between principal melody to 'overall tune'. Heck, if only I could find a way to describe it.

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TC,

sounds like quite a reasonable encapsulation to me.

I can't really put it into better words than you have, but my personal preference is always for the 'overall tune'. This is what I like about my system on AF racks.

cheers, Martin

In fact this thread should serve as a model for reasoned discussion on this usually cursed topic.

I do hope I'm not tempting fate...

I think the tune thing is an immeasurable concept like PR&T, or those Magic Eye pictures that were fashionable in the early/mid nineties: you try to get the picture, but it is meaningless. You allow your attention (gaze) to wander, and suddenly you can see the shape hidden therein. For some people it just never happens.

Nobody understands PR&T, until a notion of musicians really playing together suddenly hits you when you hear it, and then no other sonic presentation will do from that point onwards.

The tune thing is no different, and like with PR&T, everything in the system needs to be right - QS Ref. alone just won't do it , you need tuneful electronics, tuneful speakers, and tuneful leads/interconnects/cables linking everything together.

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

quote:

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Originally posted by Steven Toy:
The tune thing is no different, and like with PR&T, everything in the system needs to be right - QS Ref. alone just won't do it

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Steve,

I suspect you are right. However, in my system this attribute sprang into place when I bit the bullet and bought decent racks.

Mind you, I'd got things to the stage where I felt I was ready to throw money at racks because the system was performing well.

cheers, Martin

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

At your place, I also failed to really hear the "tune" properly - accurate pitch of notes, and relative pitch between notes on either of the two stands.

I conclude that something else in the setup apart from the Mana may have been contributing to this bleaching out of the tune...

The only other two variables were your speakers and your cables. Having heard Odyssey cables both at home, and in my dealer's demo room, it can therefore only be your speakers.

As it was said at the time, it is all down to personal taste and priorities.

Yours and mine are different, and neither of us is "right" - apart from me.

But then I have no taste...

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

I rarely - if ever - hear a stereo that does this. The strength of my modest kit is that it rarely offends. It isn't harsh etc. and can be a tad exciting at times. And it does this without special racks or dedicated mains (closing on a house tomorrow so dedicated mains could be coming my way!).

But...and this is a big Butt...

It doesn't really nail the PRaT thing. We can dance to it (yea!) and play our instruments along with it (yea!), but it is always like dancing or playing along side a not-really-very-good band.

Once house is settled I may look into better kit for one of the two (Yes! I get TWO!) systems in the house.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

quote:

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Originally posted by Greg Beatty:
...going to live gigs and hearing really good Jazz bands. The interplay and cohesion of what the musicians are doing is *obvious* - even when the players are not among the best.

I rarely - if ever - hear a stereo that does this...

- GregB

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You get visual cues at a live gig, I like to talk about musical logic. A good system lays it out for you to follow without struggling. I have some musician friends, and it's a treat listening to music with them because they can explain technical things that I don't even know how to describe.

Greg, are you expecting a hifi system to make up for visual cues too ?

Peter