Tempi and Repeats

Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 07 May 2006

Tempi and Repeats in the Performance of Classical Music.

The issue of tempi has arrisen recently, with a view to Beethoven's Metronome markings, and whethere these are accurately followed and of real significance to the quality of any given performance.

In Beethoven's case this issue is doubly difficult because his concern for the practicle possibilities of his music was somewhat compromised by his own hearing problems. All composers have an idea what speed they want the music to go at, and sometimes this is plain wrong. Elgar for example was prone to alter the indication of speed after the hearing someone else perform it or in one case that should be more famous after recording it at approximately his oun metronome marking. When reviewing the test pressings of his own 1926 recording of the Enigma Variations he wrote in the published piano reduction his critcal comments on his own reading!

On the VIII Variation, he scrawled, "Agree with Dr R. A leetle slower." To decipher this, he was refering to the fact that Dr Hans Richter, the great conductor and admirer of Elgar's music, had suggested this 26 years earlier, and Elgar even imitates his German accent!

Sibelius was very flexible about what he wanted, and sent a telegram about it to Anthony Collins who made a pioneering set of the Symphonies in the 50s for Decca, most recently issued on Beulah, and the two were in contact on many details during the course of the enterprise. Sibelius cabled to the effect that the conductor must have the freedom to make the music natural and alive! Carte Blanche is what that sounds like though I think, but Collins knew what the old man wanted by the comment.

Brahms was so upset by people obsessing about his metronome marks that he wanted them all removed from the published works!

Really the style and speed come from several related aspects.

The Hall accoustic has a significant bearing on the eventual chosen tempi in music. For example where there is a good clear accoustic like the Festival Hall the tempi can be and will be naturally quicker than in a big hall like the Albert Hall, which has an excessively long and slow accoustic. Furtwangler explains this at length in his writings on 'tempi and the possibility of sound.' His conclusion is that there can be no such artistic thing as standardised tempi. Clearly the range of tempi in different performances in any given work tend to bear out Furtwangler's view, and he was both a performer and a composer...

So slavish adherence to the metronome may be seen asa mixed blessing.

Boult sagaceously noted that the metronome mark should give an indicator of the sort of tempo that the composer had in mind, as a stylistic guide! Wagner suggests it is likely to apply to only a very few bars in the whole movement or section concerned.

So clearly tempo is something to understand within a stylistic framework rather than as a literal reading of the mechanical figure given at the head of some scores. It completely ignores tempo rubatto, and natural changes of pace at cadenses, let alone how one deals with repeats.

Repeats.

Much classical music contains repeat marks which are either taken in performance or left unplayed. Some are conventionally taken such as first time repaets in Minuets and Trios, though usually not second time repeats. Should repeats always be played or should judgement be applied? In practice, judgement is the rule, and there is no standardisation in this area at all.

Brahms had an interesting comment, in that he thought that early performances of a work should always have the repeats but if the audience already knew the music, why play them! To Haydn and Mozart there seems to have been the thought that any piece could be taylored in time duration to the needs of particular circumstances, so a repeat sign might be ignored if time was shorter and followed if another five minutes of music was required. This seems a very slack carry on, but true in many cases.

Nowadays we have the benefit of concerts where the conditions of performance are often quite ideal and the question of repeats can be considered on artistc grounds alone. If Brahms Third Symphony follows the interval, for example Boult felt the first movement exposition repeat should be always taken as it gives greater weight to the whole Symphony, whereas if the symphony was programmed in the first half, usually with another work, he tended to drop it. This of course is also of relevance to the actual tempo of the movement concerned! astudy of both Furtwangler's and Boult's commercial recording will reveal that both quite happily played or ignored this particular repeat according to circumstances, and indeed this also indicates the approach to the necessary changes in tempi to accomodate the policy addopted in any given performance.

This is a huge area of consideration, and from what I have written above, just scratching the surface, it will be clear that little value can be, or actually is given, to a dogmatic approach to tempi! Let alone the metronome


All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 07 May 2006 by Ian G.
Thanks for that Fredrik - slowly I'm learning more about classical music. I didn't even know repeats existed until Friday's thread!

Ian
Posted on: 07 May 2006 by pe-zulu
It is difficult to look at the tempo in isolation in music. The tempo must be choosen in accordance with a lot of other things, such as a general character of the music, meter, rhytm, articulation, size of ensemble and acoustical properties of the chosen concert hall. When all these things are considered together, the choice of tempo often will be obvious.

That is at least my experience. Even if I most play renaissance and early baroque music in small groups, the general considerations must be the same. A tempo seems too fast or too slow, if it is not choosen in accordance with the other qualities of the performance. Short detached articulation and light accentuation allows a faster tempo than heavier accentuation and longer articulation, and greater ensemble (usually) and longer reverberation (always) dictates a slower tempo, since the tempo never should be too fast to allow every single note to be clearly audible(with a few exceptions).

Concerning repetitions I am very strict. I think as a rule all repetitions in baroque music should to be made. In later ages, with the emergence of the sonata form, I think that the repetition of the exposition ought to be made if prescribed, whereas the repetition of the second part of a movement in sonata form often is superfluous, and sometimes directly inadvisable. But it took the composers (like Mozarts in his piano sonatas) some time to learn to omit these traditional repeat signs at the concluding double-bar. In baroque music the repetition should be used for the creating of some variation like introducing passing notes, "melism�s", embellishment and more extended ornaments. This is very often prescribed and written out in Vienna-classical keyboard music.
Posted on: 07 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear pe-zulu,

It was already a long post, and then only scratched the surface.

I agree absolutely with you, and personally, I tend to view any repeat as essential to the architectural shape of music, except in Mozart's second half repeats [in sonata from movements), where there are real reasons why they don't always work.

The example of this my little string band found out by trying it out was in the Divertimento (B flat?) where if the performers take literally the repeat in the slow first movement (and play it!), the harmony simply does not work! We tried it twice to see if we had played some wrong notes, and having worked out we had played what was written, dropped it. Given the number of bars in both parts of the movement the dropping of the repeat in the second half made the first half (with repeats) exactly the length as the second without! Somehow the intention became rather clear!

All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 07 May 2006 by pe-zulu
Dear Fredrik

This reminds me of a similar example with Bach.

In the second movement of Bach�s sixth organ trio-sonata a rare occurence takes place.
If the repetition of the second part of the second movement is to be made, it will result in a single pair of parallel octaves in the transitional bar. Can this be taken to indicate, that the repetition actually not is meant to be made even if prescribed? Or is it one of the rare slips in Bachs music. I vote definitely for the latter, because situations like this to my knowledge don�t occur anywhere else in Bach�s enormous Opus.

Regards,
Posted on: 07 May 2006 by Ian G.
quote:
Originally posted by pe-zulu:

If the repetition of the second part of the second movement is to be made, it will result in a single pair of parallel octaves in the transitional bar. Can this be taken to indicate, that the repetition actually not is meant to be made even if prescribed?


Could pe-zulu or Fredrik explain what is meant here. In particular what are parallel octaves ? and in what sense could the repetition not be meant to be taken if prescribed??

Musical and non-musical lingo colliding ??
Posted on: 07 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
dear pe-zulu,

In that case I would say Bach would have written a mistake but played what he wanted! Then a subtle editorial decision has to be made to allow for a repeat to be made that is convincing in its transition I would think. Do you agree!. I should dig out old Walcha and find what he does here...

Fredrik
Posted on: 07 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Ian,

I just saw your post, and I don't have the score [to hand,as it is still in Worcester!], so I can't necessarily explain it as pe-zulu would!

In general a full cadense with which a musical paragraoh tends to end goes Five - One in the bass, and this sounds like mumbo jumbo perhaps, but it isn't quite. If you know where middle C is on the piano and play the white note five notes above followed by the C this amounts to G to C which esesntial resilves the harmonic full stop called a full cadense in C Major (or minor with differing parts above). I would guess that Bach has failed to prepare the cadense, which is essentially wrong in music grammar. A bit like not using a full stop, and it sounds wrong. Really a full cadense is a natural thing to the ear.

Fredrik
Posted on: 09 May 2006 by pe-zulu
Dear Fredrik

I have consulted my item of the score to the sixth Bach organ triosonata and realise, that it is not about parallel octaves but even worse, parallel quints. The pedal part plays b - a, and the alto part (left hand) plays fis - e. The soprano part (right hand) tacet. The b and fis are demiquavers meant to sound simultaneously , and the e in the alto is a grace note to dis, but the grace note should according to the style be played on a strong beat falling simoultaneously with the a in the pedal part. So we have two parts moving from an interval of a quint to the interval of another quint = parallel quints.

Walcha avoids the problem by omitting the repetition.

Regards,
Posted on: 09 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear pe-zulu!

The dreaded parallel fifth! Yes I managed to write a short piece at school containing them, and was sadden to find the effect not so happily accepted by my piano teacher. I thought I would leave composition to cleverer people than me. In a way it is nice to know that even Bach was able to make a mistake! He was after all a human being!

All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 09 May 2006 by Ian G.
quote:
Originally posted by pe-zulu:
Dear Fredrik

I have consulted my item of the score to the sixth Bach organ triosonata and realise, that it is not about parallel octaves but even worse, parallel quints. The pedal part plays b - a, and the alto part (left hand) plays fis - e. The soprano part (right hand) tacet. The b and fis are demiquavers meant to sound simultaneously , and the e in the alto is a grace note to dis, but the grace note should according to the style be played on a strong beat falling simoultaneously with the a in the pedal part. So we have two parts moving from an interval of a quint to the interval of another quint = parallel quints.

Walcha avoids the problem by omitting the repetition.

Regards,


I'm glad you addressed that to Fredrik - since I suspect most of the rest of us have no idea what you're talking about Smile

Fredrik - Thanks for trying in the post above, but I'm so far behind as to be a lost case without some effort on my part. I have no idea what a cadense is and how to recognise the beginning and end of a musical paragraph.

However my revenge is I think you are essentially talking about what we physicists refer to as 'periodic boundary conditions'. i.e. when you have a repeating phenomenon the joins or interfaces have to be smooth between periods.

or then not .... Smile

cheers

Ian
Posted on: 09 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Ian,

Do you have a piano to hand for then I can explain it so you can go and play it, and listen to the result, which if it sounds like anything, it definately does not sound like a harmonic full-stop? The correct name in English is a full cadense. There are several types of cadense, but the post would get a bit long if...

Without a piano, this is nigh impossible! Let me know, and I will have a go for you.

Fred

PS: I was trying to think of of a nice Five One [full] cadense for you that is well known, and the example I thought of is our National Anthem. Listen to the bass-line in the last three notes. Let us say thesse are D-D-G in G Major, Thus 5-5-1. Then consider what the notes in the upper parts are doing, over these bass notes. You will notice that they move pitch but not by a fifth, and resolve onto a nice recognisably finite chord in the home key of G. This involves no parallel fifths, and conducts the ear painless to a natural sense of arriving home.

If you can listen for that, and have a piano I can explain what Bach has done in error from what pe-zulu wrote. It is nopt in the cadense but how the repeat marks mean the first repeated bar are approached! Fred
Posted on: 09 May 2006 by Ian G.
hi,

I don't have piano but I have decent 'piano' keyboard software on my computer that I can find a C on (just)!

cheers

Ian
Posted on: 09 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Ian,

Find G, and play it. Then find D above it and play it. That is a bare fifth. Play them together and it makes a rather satisfactory conccorde.

Now play the D, and them move to the G letting the D off in the move. That is Five - One in G Major which is the home key of most performances of the National Anthem (sometimes in F but not now!).

This represents the bass line of the full cadense. The other parts can be referenced by looking in any hymn book with the music.

The problem is what Bach must have done in the first Bar of the part to be repated, for in this case we are now firmly in the home key, and approaching a bar that firstime would have probably been approached from a different harmonic position so the issue raised would not have haapened first time as this instance is of a second half repeat.

pe-zulu indicates that The bass line and alto part drop by whole tone in time, at the interval of a fifth in this first bar to be repeated.

I am not saying this is quite analogous as I would need to see the score to be sure, but something along the lines of playing the D over the G both together and then simultaniously changing to playing a C over the F (ie moving one white note down from the original pair of notes) Both the intevals are fifths moving together, in parallel, which is a rather odd effect, and tends to unhinge the sense of key altogether.

Try this out, and it should sound very odd to you! I wonder if you would want to learn the piano one day!

All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 09 May 2006 by Ian G.
I did try this and indeed made some very odd combinations of noises - I think I see the point now though.

My parents were keen for all three of us kids to learn the piano and my elder sister and younger brother went to lessons for a while but I was too much a running around and climbing trees and riding bikes wee boy that I refused. I can't say I regret that choice as I would have hated it then, but I'm envious of people now who can play music.

I have sometimes considered trying, even at this late stage, to pick it up for my own pleasure but I know myself too well by now to believe I really have the discipline/time/energy to struggle up the learning hill until I can play well enough to find pleasure in it.

Defeatist or realist - I'm never sure which.

Thanks for your help.

ian
Posted on: 09 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Ian,

I was useless at the piano, and can play better now than I ever did when I was trying to learn. I was a sort of piano defeatist too.

In a way, if only I could have shown you face to face these very things you would hear them and understand, for I could also show you the other cadenses, and resolutions of discords and so on. In old music discords are always prepared and resolved, which is why they can feel picquantly beautiful rather than ugly dissonannses.

For an example of this, listen to the two violin lines in the second movement - the Air (know eroneously as on a G String) - from Bach Third Suite. You have Pinnock's records don't you? And listen to the exquisite discords there. As daring as anything in modern music, but contained in a style that prevents them from being ugly, whilst making them painfully emotive and beautiful. They come in the second half of the movement

Good listening from Fredrik!
Posted on: 09 May 2006 by Ian G.
Do you remember ALL our record collections !!

I just popped the 'Air' on for a listen - I would never before have believed it was in any way discordant - it is such an evocative and beautiful little piece.

One lives and learns!

Ian
Posted on: 09 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Ian,

Apart from survival, I would say I have no aganda... excepthat I do! To de-mythologise olden music.

If you ever came here and had no experience of olden music you would without doubt at least have the chance!

It the only thing I more or less understand. The world in general mystifies me!

ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 11 May 2006 by Aiken Drum
Fredrik,

An interesting and thought provoking thread. I had forgotten all about interrupted, perfect and plagal cadenses, yet as soon as I read the post and the subsequent replies, I was taken back to the happy hours spent in the music room at school during choir practices.

Whilst not all of us in the choir were studying music, the choir master often took the opportunity to refer a choral experience back to a key point made in a music lesson earlier in the day. As a result, even ignoramuses like me learned something.

One major lesson I did learn about tempo came about at a music festival. I was entered to sing "For the mountains shall depart" from the Elijah. I thought I was well prepared, but on the day, it turned out that we had to use the accompanist supplied by the festival committee. This was fine, but, their interpretation of the tempo turned out to be far more adagio than my youthful breath control could cope with.

Thank you for the thread.