Naim DAC and USB memory stick compared to Naim DAC and CDX 2-2

Weird!
Timing information, i.e. jitter, are only present at the WAV file playback time in the Naim DAC.
Some stuff of the DAC player to be fixed?

I do not know why? I should give it a try with a different Naim DAC and ask Naim whether this is normal.

Folks,

Should be able to validate John's experiment this coming weekend - as I'm planning to evaluate the DAC in my home system.

Cheers

Richard

@ paremus:

That would be very interesting. Please post your findings.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John R.:
I do not know why? I should give it a try with a different Naim DAC and ask Naim whether this is normal.[/QUOT

im not sure that the memory stick inclusion is really required. ive try several just to see/hear it. im realy not interested in that option. i thouht the quality was ok, tried ipod too. personally i would have liked an extra 75 ohm input instead. overall the dac is tiptop. quiet/fast and the bottom end is great. human voice stunning alan

Sticks and dig domain cables sound different from each other despite the protests of the bit perfect contingent and the CDX2 is a great CD transport. A lesser transport and better usb drive could reverse your observation. Differencres will always exist with associated bits in revealing kit but whats good to know is that SPdif doesn't appear to be a determining factor.

Can anyone recommend a high quality USB stick - I have a number of low quality ones to hand

IMHO, there is no SQ difference from different USB sticks, if they are not defective.

USB stick > USB >> data stream >> USB > Naim DAC > DAC player > audio stream > DAC

CDX2 > data stream > CDX2 player > audio stream > S/PDIF >> audio stream >> S/PDIF > Naim DAC > jitter reduced mechanism > DAC

The data stream containing data information should be usually lossless.
The resulting audio stream contains usually lossless data information and jittered timing information.

“Since 1991 when the first Naim CD player – the CDS – was launched, Naim’s design philosophy has been that for best sonic performance from digital audio the master clock must be positioned close to the DAC chips.”

In case of USB sticks without eventual bugs

“when the clock and DAC chips are closely coupled, timing errors are minimised.

Whereas if a CD player is connected to an external DAC via S/PDIF, the master clock is in the CD player and the DAC chips are in the DAC, ie they are separated by the S/PDIF interface. The DAC has to recover the clock from the S/PDIF signal, and this can easily introduce timing errors (jitter). Moreover, S/PDIF circuitry represents a radio frequency (RF) noise source and its presence in a CD player is audible. Consequently, Naim has never fitted S/PDIF outputs to its CD players and has never developed an external DAC – until now.”

quote:

Originally posted by DanBa:
The DAC has to recover the clock from the S/PDIF signal, and this can easily introduce timing errors (jitter). .”

Which is why Naim don't recover the clock from the SPdif signal.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by DanBa:
IMHO, there is no SQ difference from different USB sticks, if they are not defective.

Have you tried it ? or are you just assuming..

From our tests there is a huge varation in quality of playback from various brands of new USB sticks...our best results were with a LaCie Iamakey 4GB stick - which was about twice the price of the alternatives we tried from Adata, Toshiba, etc..remeber there is more to a USB stick than the memory (which vary in quality anyway), there is also a controller chip responsible for interfacing memory chips, which have no native communication with a USB interface.

Personally I think the USB interface on the DAC is a nice to have but impractical for playback of more than a couple of albums.

Please try it if you are at all unsure...and then please share your results.

@PureHifi

Just assuming; only at the first step in the DAC assessment process; reading white paper, reading reviews.

As far as I understand, in the case of USB stick playback, the USB interface is included in the data information processing usually lossless with no audio timing information (i.e. the audio player is inside the DAC).

The USB interface involved in the more or less jittered audio stream is between a computer and a DAC (i.e. the audio player is inside the PC).
http://www.computeraudiophile....ity-USB-Audio-Primer

quote:

Originally posted by PureHifi:

From our tests there is a huge varation in quality of playback from various brands of new USB sticks...our best results were with a LaCie Iamakey 4GB stick

Thanks for the recommendation. Is that only for the 4GB, or is the 16GB good also? I notice that on Amazon many buyers comment on the slow transfer speed of the Iamakey sticks, but presumably that has no impact on audio playback, correct?

quote:

Originally posted by PureHifi:
Have you tried it ? or are you just assuming..

From our tests there is a huge varation in quality of playback from various brands of new USB sticks...our best results were with a LaCie Iamakey 4GB stick - which was about twice the price of the alternatives we tried from Adata, Toshiba, etc..remeber there is more to a USB stick than the memory (which vary in quality anyway), there is also a controller chip responsible for interfacing memory chips, which have no native communication with a USB interface.

Personally I think the USB interface on the DAC is a nice to have but impractical for playback of more than a couple of albums.

Please try it if you are at all unsure...and then please share your results.

@PureHifi

Just assuming; only at the first step in the DAC assessment process; reading white paper and reviews.

The USB interface in the case of USB stick playback is not the same animal than the USB interface in the case of PC playback.

In the case of PC playback, there is a jittered audio bitstream (i.e. the 0s and the 1s and timing information) transferring on the USB interface (i.e. the audio player is inside the PC).

In the case of USB stick playback, there is only a data stream (i.e. only the 0s and the 1s) transferring on the USB interface (i.e. the audio player is inside the DAC).
An audio file like any Word document put on the USB stick can be losslessly read.

It is possible that with a defective USB stick or a defective PC, the Word document cannot be read without error.
Due to a possible defective implementation, it is possible that the Naim DAC cannot read without error any standard USB stick, but only some high speed USB stick.

Yesterday I tried three different USB sticks with 16/44,1 and 24/88,2 WAV files with the Naim DAC and all USB sticks worked fine, but the most expansive one, which is also the fastest one, sounded the worst! All three sounded different and one of them rather poor. No joke! I will try the recommended LaCie Iamakey 4GB tonight. Regarding the 16/44,1 WAV file the CDX2-2/Naim DC 1 sounded the best in a direct A to B demo! Seems that the good old CD player still rules

quote:

Originally posted by DanBa:

quote:

Originally posted by PureHifi:
Have you tried it ? or are you just assuming..

From our tests there is a huge varation in quality of playback from various brands of new USB sticks...our best results were with a LaCie Iamakey 4GB stick - which was about twice the price of the alternatives we tried from Adata, Toshiba, etc..remeber there is more to a USB stick than the memory (which vary in quality anyway), there is also a controller chip responsible for interfacing memory chips, which have no native communication with a USB interface.

Personally I think the USB interface on the DAC is a nice to have but impractical for playback of more than a couple of albums.

Please try it if you are at all unsure...and then please share your results.

@PureHifi

Just assuming; only at the first step in the DAC assessment process; reading white paper and reviews.

The USB interface in the case of USB stick playback is not the same animal than the USB interface in the case of PC playback.

In the case of PC playback, there is a jittered audio bitstream (i.e. the 0s and the 1s and timing information) transferring on the USB interface (i.e. the audio player is inside the PC).

In the case of USB stick playback, there is only a data stream (i.e. only the 0s and the 1s) transferring on the USB interface (i.e. the audio player is inside the DAC).
An audio file like any Word document put on the USB stick can be losslessly read.

It is possible that with a defective USB stick or a defective PC, the Word document cannot be read without error.
Due to a possible defective implementation, it is possible that the Naim DAC cannot read without error any standard USB stick, but only some high speed USB stick.

Nothing defective or lossless going on. Only .wav in this instance. The player and stick still need to transfer info in a controlled way and the controller in the stick will be involved.

quote:

Originally posted by PureHifi:

Have you tried it ? or are you just assuming..

From our tests there is a huge varation in quality of playback from various brands of new USB sticks...our best results were with a LaCie Iamakey 4GB stick - which was about twice the price of the alternatives we tried from Adata, Toshiba, etc..remeber there is more to a USB stick than the memory (which vary in quality anyway), there is also a controller chip responsible for interfacing memory chips, which have no native communication with a USB interface.

Personally I think the USB interface on the DAC is a nice to have but impractical for playback of more than a couple of albums.

Please try it if you are at all unsure...and then please share your results.

Placebo effect is well known especially in the medical community, so being able to "hear" difference does not necessarily mean it is there.

Never underestimate the power of suggestion, doesn't your car feel faster after a nice car wash?

And how does the Naim DAC "know" whether a USB stick is more expensive, when sonic quality surely is the last thing in the engineer's design goals, and most of the memory inside were probably bought from similar if not same sources, which are 90% likely to be from China. Bearing in mind also that the differences in pricing are mostly attributed to marketing, packaging, cosmetic design (e.g. Lacie hires famous designers like Neil Poulton, Christophe Pillet and Phillipe Starck) and buying power of the manufacturer?

Can't help quoting the great Morpheus again:

"You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more."

@ JYOW: If you would read my post you would find out that the most expansive one was the worst sounding in my USB memory stick test. But before saying that we only hear placebo effects you should rather arrange your very own demo. That reminds me of the situation about 20 years ago when most people would deny that different cables do sound different...

I tried the LaCie Iamakey 4GB last night: Up to now the best sounding USB memory stick that I tested, but unfortunately a lot of problems when playing tracks - with 16/44,1 and 24/88. It sounds like CD with a scratch. Than repeating the same track it works fine and without any problems just to make problems with the next tracks. It is a pity, since when it works, it sounds great. The search for the perfect USB memory stick continues.

I am glad that others are starting to actually test different USB sticks and finding variation in performance. I posted these results in a previous post on our experience with the DAC and there was a lot of doubt that this could be the case...mostly from people who had not auctually done any comparitive testing.

I don't really think it is a big fizz because in practice it is such a small part of the DAC functionality and anyone serious about the DAC is not going to be using the USB input for much more than casual use - BUT it does kinda highlight that there is more to "playback" of digitally stored music than "storage" of 1's & 0's alone.

I just recieved "The Beatles Stereo USB" apple, and am quite keen to compare it's playback to other USB sticks with the 24bit FLAC files on it...should be interesting.

Trying random things on your setup may be fun, but too "random" for my taste. If there are theories behind what makes one USB stick better than another then I would be very interested to try.

I am no engineer so please correct me if I a wrong, the following factors make me doubtful about the effects of different medias connected to the USB port:

1. Unlike reading of a CD, reading of USB data from the flash memory stick is 100% all digital and buffered. The chance of any error in reading is zero if the data can be read at all. If I read a Word file from my memory stick it either works or it doesn't.

(To me the only way that one USB stick would differ from another may be interference introduced to the machine, which I doubt.)

2. As far as I know there aren't that many flash memory fabs in the world so all these memory sticks probably differ only cosmetically.

3. Data read from the USB sticks should be buffered and error free. Assuming that is correct, why would 2 identical data streams sound differently.

4. I have never seen photo buffs claiming differences of pictures between different hard drives, USB sticks, LAN cables, floppy discs, or whatever storage medium you can think of. Think about how ridiculous it sounds when I say a picture looks best on a Lacie memory stick. I would be laughed out of the room.

Not trying to ridicule anyone, don't think it hurts to try either since this would be the cheapest tweaks for us audiophools, until someone comes up with gold USB audiophile sticks .

JYOW - alas, even if you suppose there are no issues in the digital domain, and the data is correct, the USB stick is a source of electrical noise, and different sticks can be presumed to generate different amounts of noise.

Whether the DAC should be sensitive to this noise is another matter, as is whether there is any point using an interface with such susceptibilities.

Every time I hear that different USB sticks sound different, or different cables sound different, or different NAIM transports sound different through the DAC I become less impressed with or interested in the DAC.

quote:

Originally posted by PureHifi:
I am glad that others are starting to actually test different USB sticks and finding variation in performance. I posted these results in a previous post on our experience with the DAC and there was a lot of doubt that this could be the case...mostly from people who had not auctually done any comparitive testing.

I don't really think it is a big fizz because in practice it is such a small part of the DAC functionality and anyone serious about the DAC is not going to be using the USB input for much more than casual use - BUT it does kinda highlight that there is more to "playback" of digitally stored music than "storage" of 1's & 0's alone.

I just recieved "The Beatles Stereo USB" apple, and am quite keen to compare it's playback to other USB sticks with the 24bit FLAC files on it...should be interesting.

FLAC, neat trick. Don't want to give the wrong impression.

Every DAC I've heard that didn't explicitly show these types of differences in a good setup, (cables, different bit correct sources or stick connected to a computer etc), also weren't revealing or close enough to the original source sound to be worthy of further audition for me.

For those using firewire, if you can find a Tributaries cable, it's quite good. Unfortunately, they're discontinued. On that note, I find it even more odd that this particular cable should make a difference as the clock and correction circuit in a TC/Weiss or any of these better outboard interfaces is after the cable that should be compensated for in the loop. It's still quite obvious yet the Jitter is always very low after JET. There's more to this. I know many would like this simplified but it just seems that it's not that simple. Blaming Naim for this when their SPdif seems to perform as well as USB 2.0 would be ludicrous.

lol - yep, FLAC isn't supported for the USB stick! Interesting indeed!

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
JYOW - alas, even if you suppose there are no issues in the digital domain, and the data is correct, the USB stick is a source of electrical noise, and different sticks can be presumed to generate different amounts of noise.

Whether the DAC should be sensitive to this noise is another matter, as is whether there is any point using an interface with such susceptibilities.

Every time I hear that different USB sticks sound different, or different cables sound different, or different NAIM transports sound different through the DAC I become less impressed with or interested in the DAC.

Likesmusic, suggest you go and try for yourself and see if your ears are as sensitive as some others.

I never bothered with my no name Firewire cable connected to my Weiss DAC, and it sounds darn good to me. Tried comparing between Apple Lossless, WAV, AIFF, FLAC, cannot tell any differences either.

I guess I should consider myself lucky.

I could readily tell the improvement Powerline and HiLine made to my system though.