alternatives for nac-a5

Keep the A5.

Greetz! Bas

I too have a Nait 2 and have seen the effects of terminal damage inside a Nait 1 that I once borrowed from the dealer.

It is my understanding that if you are using Naim's banana plugs with their moulded plastic housings on the end of your A5, and have them fully seated into the back of the amp, then no harm will come to the sockets, as the plastic plug housing plates will act as a strain relief.

I found that the newer plug housings that I purchased with my A5 wouldn't simultaneously fit flush with the back of the amp due to the protrusions that mark the +ve and -ve sides interfering with one another. The older plastic plug housings only had the +ve side protrusion, so I swapped the ones that came with my IBLs with those on the speaker cable. Had I not found the IBLs (difficult here in Canada) I would have cut the -ve protrusions off of the newer plates.

I don't believe that this is an issue with any other than the Naits 1 and 2.

BTW, I arranged my A5 so that it connects to the amp from above so that it doesn't interfere with the amps position on my stand. The cable just loops downward after its ascent of about 6" in height over the back of the amp. Others have reported 'persuading' their A5 to cooperate by using a hair dryer to 'set' the insulation. You can bend it through 90 degrees or more without damage to the cable, as long as you are not continually bending it back and forth.

Hope this helps,

Craig
PS. BTW, how is that new CDX comming along?

I'm not using the original Naim plugs at the moment. (though I have 2 left) I ordered the Nac-a5 with some goldplated-banana's soldered to it.

I also don't have a hairdryer to bend my naca5.

btw: my new CDX sounds just fine. It sounds very natural and involving,with great detail and very
tight bass. (as it should be,considering its absurd high price,imho)

btw: now for something completely different...

I can get me a brandnew Target VR4 rack for only UKP 170,-. Now, it looks better then my current sound-factory,and it will hide more cables,but the hight is 65cm. With the CDX on top it comes to about 75cm.
If I were to buy this rack it'll stand in between/front of my Kan's on their 55cm Kan-II stands. Now, would this have a bad influence on the soundstage compared to my lower (45cm) Sound-Factory rack ? whatta ya think...

Greetings,
Alco

They may have something that would work.

mykel

That reminds me, I remember reading on the old forum, that some posters reported noticing obvious sonic differences between different lengths of A5. I seem to recall that, as far as Naims length specifications went, 3.5 metres is the minimum recommended length, 10 metres optimum, and 20 metres maximum. Can anyone verify this, as the search skate board needs its bearings replaced?

According to Julian, Linn's K20 used the same wire configuration as did A4 (same vendor), but with an even softer insulation material. K20 didn't do much to help the LK1/LK2 that I heard though. The 42-5/110 left it for dead. The 42-5/Hi/110 was in another league altogether.

Craig

[This message was edited by Craig Best on WEDNESDAY 10 October 2001 at 05:01.]

David

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I hate the stiffness of the nac-a5. Ok,ok,I know,it's the sound that counts,but it's an almost impossible cable to work with. sometimes I'm afraid it wil damage the speaker terminals inside my Nait-2,and sometimes when I wanted to put my amp on another shelf or a little more back on a shelf the nac-a5 starts moving the amp. Another thing is that you can't lay it down next to the wooden plinths on the floor.

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I agree that A5 is a pain in the butt to deal with, but it really does sound good. I compared it ages ago to some stupidly expensive Cardas cable at a friends house, and boy did A5 sound better - the Cardas just killed the groove and dynamics. Whilst I consider Nordorst cable to sound far better than most of the crap out there, I still feel it is a expensive downgrade when compared to A5.

As for dealing with A5, I have the Naim plugs soldered on straight at the amp end rather than at right angles as I find it far easier to route them without any strain. Loosing the black plastic covers improves the sound a tiny bit too. My Nait 1 had all its speaker connectors loose due to cable strain when I got it, it was not a hard job to neatly re-solder them at all, it just means taking the main board out as they are soldered from beneath which is a bit of a pain. My Nait 2 was thankfully fine and needed no work. To route A5 neatly around things use a hair dryer, heating the cable surround makes it more flexible and it will stay in position - I have never actually tried this, my A5 is still a mess!

Tony.

1) Naca5

2) Chord Company Odyssey - can time, can't pitch.
3) Chord Company Rumour - can't time, can't pitch.
4) Something by Sonic Link. My eyes were too bleary to read the sleeve on this cable. I did spot a spelling mistake on it though - fair put me off! Lots of detail, no music.

5) Nordost Solar Wind. If this was the only cable left on the planet, I'd bin my power amp and speakers, and just use headphones.
Gritty isn't the word to describe that bass.
One note? I'd say half at best!
BTW, the interconnects by the same Nordost name are quite nice, though.
I've got two for sale. One is DIN to RCA, the other is RCA to RCA. 45 quid each. They cost 85 new.
Cheers!

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

As I write. I have dnm Reson warming up nicely. The 250 is running cooler than it did on Naca5!

Alex

ps Paul S - please do not read this.

I am very surprised at your result with dnm. Although it's a fine cable by any standard, it can cause capacitance problems on a lot of amps; I would have thought Naim would be one of them.

Alco,

The latest variant of NAC A5 is more flexible than of old. That should help. I have had the damage you speak of happen in my old 90/2 when I was using banana plugs. You really ought to get the wire re-terminated with the Naim S8's. As for using a hair dryer to bend the cable, I suppose you could do that although I personally always just bent it back on itself until it stayed put. No harm done.

As to other cables, I've tried quite a few and there's always a compromise. The best compromise usually works out to be NAC A5 - sorry!

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

VDH the wind: soft, round and warm.
Siltech 25: fast, brilliant, can be fatiguing, expensive
Nordost solar wind: good speed, but there is no bass
Harmonic technology: exccellent 3D, deep bass, nice high: the best
OCOS: dull
Kimber 8pr: not really something wrong but not inspiring
Supra 3.4: bass ok,
MIT nr2?: slow, soft

Finally I ended with Naim cable: dynamic, deep bass, reasonable soundstage, cheap.

The guy who makes it says it provides one of the most stable loads a 250 can get and has promised to fix it for free if it blows up.

The cable really starts to work after warming up for a week.

Alex

quote:

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Originally posted by Alex S.:
otherwise there are many valid alternatives which will not fry the amps but will cripple the warranty of you tell 'em, so don't.

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They can tell if the failure mode is that caused by a capacitative cable.

cheers, Martin

Martin,

quote:

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They can tell if the failure mode is that caused by a capacitative cable.

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How?

cheers

Nigel

quote:

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Loosing the black plastic covers improves the sound a tiny bit too

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Tony

Are you serious? It's never crossed my mind to loosen the plastic covers and I can't think of any reason why it should improve the sound.
I'll try it later today, although I must say, my Naim plugs are on the amp end of my A5. I have
'normal' banana plugs on the speaker end.

Bri

quote:

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Originally posted by BD:
It's never crossed my mind to loosen the plastic covers and I can't think of any reason why it should improve the sound.

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Brian,

presumably it's microphony - the same effect which we try to minimise with expensive rack systems for our electronics.

Cables can short-circuit the isolation of the tables.

quote:

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How?

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Nigel,

I dunno, but it's been stated several times by members of the various service departments.

I guess if the amp goes unstable then particular components get stressed in ways they wouldn't in normal operation.

cheers, Martin

Cable and speaker capacitance reduce the phase margin in the amps. In other words the amps become electrically unstable and start to oscillate. The oscillation stresses the power transistors, makes them hot and can damage them. Inductance mitigates the reduction in phase margin.

Twin core speaker cable has inductance that is primarily related to the area between the conductors - distance between conductors x length of cable. Two cables that have the same total area between the conductors - regardless of length and gap - will have the roughly same inductance (assuming the gap is filled with air).

Since Naim recommend a minimum of 3.5m (is that correct?) of NACA. You can calculate the area between the conductors by multiplying the the distance between the conductors by 3.5m. This area can be considered the minimum area necessary to protect the amp.

If you want to use another brand of cable and you aren't sure whether it has enough inductance, you can give it the minimum simply by separating the conductors a near the amp end to form an area equal to the minimum necessary.

For example, suppose the NACA gap is 1cm (I haven't mesured it). Multiply 1 x 350 = 350 sq cm.
Add some margin for safety - so lets call it 500sqcm. With your new cable, cut the insulation down the middle for a distance of 60cm and then pull them apart so that the gap is 10cm. So forming a rectangle in the cable 50cm long with a gap of 10cm. Make sure the rectangle starts near to the connectors at the amp. It doesn't have to be a rectangle - all you need is a shape with an area of 500sqcm or more and one that you can closely duplicate on the other channel. It has to be a single loop. This will only work with speaker cable that can be easily pulled apart.

It's cheap and easy to do.

After reading negative comments on the old forum about biwiring, I experimented with a single run of A4. It was better than biwired A5. Single-wired A5 was better still.

If I remember right, going from bi- to single wiring provided smoother, less congested, and more dynamic sound. Didn't make sense, but I followed my ears.

Phil

I thought the same as you for the first week, awful, but after that it just clicked.

I haven't noticed any 'losses' but even if there are some I don't care, what I'm left with is clearer, much better controlled top and bottom, and powerful.

That doesn't mean I feel able to recommend it to anyone other than B&W N805 owners. It was recommended to me to solve specific problems with these specific speakers.

Alex

ps One thing is certain: the 250 runs significantly cooler with dnm than with naca5

Despite my recent heretical talk, I find it utterly disgraceful that an authorised Naim dealer, if such they are, can palm off some alternative cable to Naca5 and presumably pocket the margin difference, without even mentioning the Naim cable.

I would expect any Naim dealer to use Naca5 as a jumping off point and every dealer I've spoken to has done this. It is only in response to my own specific problems with regard to system balance, room acoustics and speaker behaviour that other cables have been suggested and tried out.

I think there is a duty to name and shame these rogue dealers, if not here then at least privately to Naim. Equally, Naim have a duty to find out what some of their dealers are up to.

Alex

Is it that they fear a loss of sales if purchasers find themselves restricted? Or is it the dealers who make extra margin off cable who insist on being able to sell other cable with Naim amps? Or are the Dealers simply defying instructions? Do Naim feel this is not a cost-effective issue to sort out as very few customers have any problems?

I just scanned the Naim home page for information. The amp specs make no mention of the speaker cable requirements! The NAC A5 page just says "strongly recommended" and makes no mention of minimum cable length requirements nor impedance requirments. Why hide this? Where do people find out about this - just from Dealers? Does anyone know what the Dealer sales guides that Naim provide say about this?

Just curious.
BAM

Naim do explicitly recommend their cable, and warn against using alternatives in the manuals.

They have also offered suitable alternative cables (via the forum), but never in writing in any other form I'm aware of. I guess at least one of the problems is if the manufacturer changes the electrical characteristics.

Try a search as I'm sure messages were posted on this forum previously, including the electrical characteristics of the cable.

They have also offered to test cables for suitability in the past, if a sample is supplied to them.

Andy.

P.S. Just found it, Mark Tucker posted it before he left Naim.

NAC A5 spec

The spec required is;
Capacitance - 16pF per metre
Resistance - 9 milli ohms per metre

I'm puzzled by MT's spec. I would have expected it to include inductance/m. Does it assume zero-L cable?

I guess I'm not sure what they are trying to achieve. One approach is to design the amp so that you can put any load at the speaker terminals without instability. In my experience amps usually get upset by pure capacitance over a certain size. Some amps insert a resistor/inductor combination in the output to cure this. Naim only insert a resistor (0.2-ohms) and no inductor. This leads me to think that the speaker cable is being used as the inductor and hence its inductance is the key parameter. Mind you, I don't know for sure whether a NAP250 is stable into any load provided 3.5m of NAC A5 is in the way. Perhaps it isn't. Perhaps this is too simplistic an analysis.

Of course, just what specs are credible or not becomes questionable when cable directionality is one of the specs.

[This message was edited by bam on SUNDAY 14 October 2001 at 17:06.]

Naim have also stated in the past that it's the capacitance that's the amp-killer, which makes sense.

I also believe you are right in that the cable performs the inductor function and as a consequence it seems odd to exclude it from the spec.

As for directionality I have no explanation as to the mechanism by which it affects the sound, and it does to my ears. Naim know when it occurs (when the insulation is added) but have no measurable explanation for the effect.

It's easy at high frequencies to make 'directional' cables - even digital interconnects, if made poorly, can exhibit directionality, but this is due to measurable mismatches. This explnation doesn't fit the audio model at all.

Andy.