The price of trade with Lybia

Don't most, if not all, nations/governments carry out similar uncivilised activities?

The news media’s anti Libyan propaganda has gone too far. It’s causing a lot of ill feeling towards Libya, with the only purpose of embarrassing Gordon Brown.

What‘s wrong with British police advising Libyan police. The fact that the Libyan’s aspire to improving their police force is surely a good thing.

So, we shouldn’t trade with the Libyans because they supplied guns and explosives to the IRA. Yet, its perfectly acceptable to have the people who primed the bombs and pulled the triggers sat in the Northern Ireland government.

There is a theory that Libya took the blame for PanAm 103, agreed to pay compensation and extradite the two suspects, in return for having the United Nations sanctions lifted.

quote:

So, we shouldn’t trade with the Libyans because they supplied guns and explosives to the IRA. Yet, its perfectly acceptable to have the people who primed the bombs and pulled the triggers sat in the Northern Ireland government.

And the Americans that funded the IRA, telling us what we can and can't do..

Dear All,

I believe that the Americans supporting the IRA were Catholics.

Whereas the Libyans are Muslims.

So Catholic Terrorism OK

Muslim Terrorism Not OK

We had 4 IRA bombs in Bristol when i was at school in Bristol in the 1970's.

regards David

America & Libya have both brought down civilian aircraft, & each time hundreds of innocent people died.
Irony, co-incidence, or just that they have much more in common than either realise &/or care to admit?
IMO the UK is just as bad. Clarity starts at home!

Libyan terrorism is/was state sponsored.

IRA support from USA came from individuals – mostly because of religious sympathy – not the state.
The IRA was restarted in the 1970's to fight by any means for basic human rights, overthrow voting restrictions and state lead sectarianism. It failed - miserably so - but Sinn Fein through the ballot box has succeeded and (depending on your view) sympathetically to other political persuasions. So now we have ex terrorists from both sides in Stormont.

USA shot down a civilian aircraft because they believed it to be a hostile as it did not have its transponder on. Libya deliberately targeted and blew up PA-103 because someone for some (still unknown) reason wanted to blow up an American aircraft.

Re harassing Brown – yes too right.
Politian’s are our servants; we vote them into our parliament to work for us and manage our country for a 4 or 5 year contractual period. After this term we carry out an individual managerial job assessment and make an executive decision on the next 4 or 5 years. In the meantime we have the right to ongoing critique, unlike Libyan citizens.

Brown was elected as an MP by his local constituency in Scotland, he has never been elected to his current position in the British parliament.

I don't think we could fit a razor blade in the gap between Libyan 'state terrorism', the UK governments activity's in Northern Ireland, recent American extraordinary rendition & torture, etc. Many more examples of similar actions exist, & for most governments.

Iran Air Flight 655, also known as IR655, had its transponder on & transmitting when it was shot down by the United States Navy. This was confirmed in a US government report finalised by Admiral William Fogarty, entitled 'Formal Investigation into the Circumstances Surrounding the Downing of Iran Air Flight 655 on 3 July 1988'.

The Fogarty report states, "The data from USS Vincennes tapes, information from USS Sides and reliable intelligence information, corroborate the fact that [Iran Air Flight 655] was on a normal commercial air flight plan profile, in the assigned airway, squawking Mode III 6760 (that's the transponder), on a continuous ascent in altitude from take-off at Bandar Abbas to shoot-down."

I believe the root causes of the downing of IR655 were the reckless aggression of the captain of USS Vincennes (William C. Rogers III), & a negligent lack of training for many of the key weapons ratings on duty at the time. Calling these events a mistake is a gross over simplification. It also denies justice to the victims & their families. If the Libyan government declared their involvement in the downing of Pan Am Flight 103 a mistake would that make it OK, or any better?

In the National Geographic documentary "Mistaken Identity" it was also confirmed that the airliner transponder was transmitting normally for a civilian aircraft. Interestingly Captain William C. Rogers III, in an interview, insisted that the code alone did not mean the aircraft was non-hostile.

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Libya deliberately targeted and blew up PA-103 because someone for some (still unknown) reason wanted to blow up an American aircraft.

It seems likely we will never know why, but doesn't retaliation for the shooting down IR655 seem likely?

I'm not an apologist for the Libyan government, any more then the that of the USA.
I think it's easy to be mislead by the government BS & media spin of the country you live in,
& not see the big picture.

Regards - Craig

Please do not think or suggest I do not see the big picture. I see it now and in the past have seen it only too well, I suffered from both IRA and the other mob, I have seen the inside of a Mid East jail for over 1 week because I was stationary at a traffic accident and as a foreigner I had no right to be there.

I have lived and worked in NI during the troubles, Libya, Saudi, Russia (in the old and new times)to name just a few.
Believe me my friends, I know what state sponsored terrorism and suppression is, and I am also wise enough and respectful enough of each countries rights to do what they want on their own turf.

But nothing gives them the right to kill innocent people home citizens or from other countries in the name of some misguided idealistic whatever for god knows what.

In this country and with all its faults, I can freely voice my opinion and critique the state, which is more than can be said of some of the above.

My opinion has been vented, I am outta here.

all governments are as bent as f--k

quote:

Originally posted by girlfriend in a coma:
I don't think we could fit a razor blade in the gap between Libyan 'state terrorism', the UK governments activity's in Northern Ireland, recent American extraordinary rendition & torture, etc.

Then you are either spectacularly myopic, misinformed or possess a gargantuan razor blade.

151 - I think you are being a bit charitable to Brown & his henchmen!

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Then you are either spectacularly myopic, misinformed or possess a gargantuan razor blade.

What do you think this contributes to the thread?
Perhaps you would care to offer your opinion, rather than abuse?

Mike-B - I take your points, but in the O/P you stated that IR655's transponder of was off, & its downing was a mistake. In repeating these peieces of discredited govenment misinformation, you presented yourself as unaware.

If you decide to revisit this thread please tell me what you now believe re: IR655?

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I am also wise enough and respectful enough of each countries rights to do what they want on their own turf.

I'm not at all respectful of these activities, & I disagree any government has the right to do such things, let alone in my name (as a citizen) & funded by my taxes.

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In this country and with all its faults, I can freely voice my opinion and critique the state, which is more than can be said of some of the above.

Again Mike, you seem to be falling for government propaganda/spin, rather then finding the truth for yourself.

In the UK peaceful, legal protesters are now likely to find themselves 'cattled' for hours,
then arrested for highly spurious reasons so the police can take fingerprints, DNA, etc. Subsequently such protesters are routinely placed under long term surveillance.
All this & more for taking an interest in social issues & expressing a view in public! In the last decade there has been a frightening erosion of civil liberties & free speech in many western countries, but especially the UK.

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I have seen the inside of a Mid East jail for over 1 week because I was stationary at a traffic accident and as a foreigner I had no right to be there.

That sounds frightening & you have my genuine sympathies, because any experience of injustice is highly traumatic & damaging for the victim. I suppose you can take comfort that you didn't find yourself in a similar 'wrong place/wrong time' situation as Ian Tomlinson & Jean Charles de Menezes did, & at the mercy of the British State? I find it notable the UK government described the death of JCM as a 'mistake', as the US government did after shooting down IR655.

I've no doubt the Libyan people suffer the horrors of living in a totalitarian state,
but IMO the UK isn't in any position to preach about civil liberties & free speech to other nations.

Regards - Craig

quote:

Originally posted by girlfriend in a coma:

quote:

Then you are either spectacularly myopic, misinformed or possess a gargantuan razor blade.

What do you think this contributes to the thread?
Perhaps you would care to offer your opinion, rather than abuse?


Regards - Craig

It puts another point of view.

You have made the rather bold assertation, can you please back it up.

M

quote:

spectacularly myopic

To me that doesn't read as a point of view, but as rather personal abuse.

I did consider you might be joking originally, but from your subsequent post I now assume not.


Regards - Craig

Craig

I think your point of view is spectacularly myopic. To say that is not a personal insult, its what I think.

You equate the actions of HMG in Northern Ireland to the mass murders and state sponsorship of terrorism by Libya; can you back this up, please.

M

Mike

It is your prerogative to think my point of view spectacularly myopic, but that doesn't preclude stating so to be meant or interpreted as an insult.

Ironically your inability to understand this might be described by some as spectacularly myopic.

I equate internment without trial in northern Ireland to any other form of State sponsored terror.
Do you consider extraordinary rendition & torture to be acceptable civilised behaviour?

Regards - Craig

quote:

Originally posted by Mike-B:
Brown was elected as an MP by his local constituency in Scotland, he has never been elected to his current position in the British parliament.

Mr Brown

Mr Brown was elected to his current position June 2007.

If you want people to value your opinions then it is important to ensure that your facts are accurate.

However, I recognise that what you really mean is that Mr Brown was not the leader of the Labour Party at the time or a general election. You may have this opportunity next year.

I know more about the IR655 incident than I am prepared to get into, but all I am prepared to say is I know it was a gold plated cast iron F.U., but at the time the red button was pressed it was believed to be a hostile.

You appear to be either missing or avoiding a key element of my argument; IR655 incident was not a deliberate pre-emptive state supported plan to and carry out the destruction of an aircraft and the death of civilians.

In case you get the impression I am hostile to Mr Brown, yes too right. But I am very un-political and am also equality short on tolerance with all politicians who exhibit a less than professional or moral attitude towards their job and the people and territory they are employed to serve.

Now I am really outta here

quote:

Originally posted by girlfriend in a coma:
Mike

It is your prerogative to think my point of view spectacularly myopic, but that doesn't preclude stating so to be meant or interpreted as an insult.

You can take my opinion in any way you wish. How you make an opinion an insult if of course, your prerogative.

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Ironically your inability to understand this might be described by some as spectacularly myopic.

Not sure why you think I am unable to understand your pov or your reaction to my comment. I just disagree with it, is all.

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I equate internment without trial in northern Ireland to any other form of State sponsored terror.

Ah.

WPC Yvonne Fletcher was shot dead by bullets actually fired from the Libyan Embassy. The Lockerbie bombing ( by Libya ) murdered 270. Semtex supplied to the Provisional IRA is estimated to have killed over 400 people. Billions of pounds worth of damage was caused to property on the UK mainland and NI by PIRAs bombing campaign, which again used Semtex supplied by Libya.

To the best of my knowledge nobody died as a result of internment without trial which had been used by both the Northern administration and the Republic. The last episode of internment without trial ( ended december 1975 ) saw the detention of 1981 people, all of whom walked free at the end of their detention. It was introduced as the normal methods of policing where simply unable to cope with the horrendous prevalence of terrorist incidents in NI.

I fail to see how you can equate one with the other.

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Do you consider extraordinary rendition & torture to be acceptable civilised behaviour?

Regards - Craig

Lets stick to the question at hand, namely your assertation that "I don't think we could fit a razor blade in the gap between Libyan 'state terrorism', the UK governments activity's in Northern Ireland "

I look forward to your comments.

Mike-B

Thanks for that. I agree it was a mega-FU.
I suppose my issues are at the time the button was pressed it was intentional, & the US sanctioned enquiry concluded it happened due to a mixture of negligence & an overly aggressive captain.

Regards - Craig

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:
Craig

You equate the actions of HMG in Northern Ireland to the mass murders and state sponsorship of terrorism by Libya; can you back this up, please.

M

The murder of the civil rights marchers in Derry by the paras (Bloody Sunday),or where they somehow more deserving of death, than the paras who were murdered some time later by the provos at Warrenpoint? All murdered,only difference some Irish some British but all dead.

which saved millions of lives during the next 60 or so years.

I blame The Vikings. Coming over here slaughtering thousands. And The Picts. And The Romans. And the Irish. Then those Angles. And the Bloody Saxons. Then the Bloody Vikings again. And the Irish again. More bloody Vikings. Then more Vikings only now called Normans. Bloody Crusaders...I refuse to have anything to do with Norwegians, Swedes, Finns, Danes, Germans, Italians, French, Scots. And the Spanish who tried hard but just got the wind wrong. And the Flemish. Bastards.

The price of trade with Germany/Russia/Japan/Argentina etc etc

Iceland!

I forgot Iceland.

quote:

Originally posted by full ahead:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Lacey:
Craig

You equate the actions of HMG in Northern Ireland to the mass murders and state sponsorship of terrorism by Libya; can you back this up, please.

M

The murder of the civil rights marchers in Derry by the paras (Bloody Sunday),or where they somehow more deserving of death, than the paras who were murdered some time later by the provos at Warrenpoint? All murdered,only difference some Irish some British but all dead.

I think we both know there is considerably more to this than you would indicate.

Martin McGuiness and the Thompson submachine gun he fired, for example. The rather strange coincidence that AIUI all of the ( acknowledged ) dead where males between the ages of 18 and 35. I have long wondered why, after the very first round was fired by the Paratroopers, *anyone* would stick around. Personally, I'd have legged it faster than Mr. Bolt.

It wasn't murder, it was a firefight and the Paras where the better shots.