DVD5 and external scaler

quote:

Originally posted by KC:
Does anyone know whether raw video data can be output from the DVI port of the DVD5? How does one turn off the internal processing in DVD5? The external scaler requires raw video data.

Currently I have connected the DVD5 via SCART to RGB input port of the scaler.

Thanks

No, output from the DVD5 Faroudja de-interlacer is RGB. I presume you mean YUV(DVD-native)when you say "raw".

The scaler upgrade will allow un-processed video to be output and no I don't know when it is to be released, so please don't ask.

Best option is RGB via SCART into a SCALER, via DVI you cannot turn off progressive scan.

Thanks

quote:

I presume you mean YUV(DVD-native)when you say "raw". The scaler upgrade will allow un-processed video to be output

Hi AV@naim: does this mean we'll see an HDMI output on the scaler card?

Thanks,
Mark.

I'll tell you....but I will have to shoot you first...



Sorry, scaler is in development. Thats all I can say right now.

(You could slip some cash to Adam, he may produce more blood when squeezed).

I couldn't possibly comment.

Mark,

Well spotted (un-processed video = no colour-space conversions therefore not DVI) but maybe AV@Naim is referring to analog outputs?

Very surprised though that you can't get an interlaced digital output on the DVD5.

Allan

quote:

Very surprised though that you can't get an interlaced digital output on the DVD5.

This is a limitation of DVI - you can only get 480p. HDMI, however, has a few advantages, including YUV colourspace, and 480i. Given that we're dealing with a scaler card, and that the scaler will be the final link in the chain in many systems, prior to the projector/screen, my money's going on it being an HDMI output. It will output custom resolutions to match the screen and will need HDCP. I'm also guessing this because Naim is driven by performance, and HDMI gives them several avenues to pursue, over analog, to squeeze the last bit of quality out of the medium. This is not to say analog is bad, by any stretch - I'm quite happily using my DVD5 with component output.

Unfortunately, I do not expect the output to be SDI since this would, I think, break part of the DVD licensing that Naim have signed up to (no HDCP over SDI = piracy galore, naturally).

I'm wondering if Naim have not released a digital video cable yet, until the scaler is ready: no point making a DVI cable if it's lifespan is relatively short and you really need HDMI.

-Mark.

addendum:

I was suggesting YUV as native, this is being a bit genrealised.

In reality native fomat is digital for DVD, so I should have stipulated it as YCbCr.

Mark R: nice explanation in your first para...

quote:

...it's lifespan...

Of course, this should have been "its lifespan".

AV@Naim: Thanks. It's nice to hear that the "raw" signal will be possible to output - not every manufacturer provides 480i output, even if it's technically possibly.

Mark R

Why do you say the limitation of DVI is restricted to output at 480p? Thought DVI limitation is 2.6 mega pixel which should be able to generate 1080 resolution.

KC: I probably wasn't specific enough, since my reply was to Allan's query about interlaced digital output on the DVD5. The DVD5 DVI output is limited to 480/576 progressive only. In the vast majority of DVD implementations, DVI only carries progressive signals (99%?). HDMI, on the other hand, can also carry interlaced, and since we're talking about a scaler it will most likely have to provide 1080i.

Yep

DVI will do 1920x1080p.

Mark R

Thank you for the clarification.

So KC....whatever happened to the Sunshine Band then?

quote:

Originally posted by KC:
Mark R

Thank you for the clarification.

Just to make sure its not ambiguous: Thats DVI as a standard that will do 1080p, not DVD5 DVI o/p.....thats just like Mark R said.

Hi Mark,

I'd forgotten that the DVI standards don't officially support interlaced output but, yes, it's coming back to me now. I use a HTPC with a decent DVI graphics card and interlaced is no problem if I wanted to use it that way, so its really down to DVD manufacturers sticking to the 'rules' I guess.

I had a chance recently to look at an Arcam DVD player feeding an iScan scaler via component and I was very impressed. I never expected it to beat my PC setup but the Arcam+iScan edged it. That set me thinking, and for while I started a quick appraisal of available DVD players. It didn't take long to realise that if you want digital out, and interlaced, start looking at the higher end.

I've not made a move yet from my HTPC setup but what consistently seems to come up from the reading ive done (note, not viewing) that the best arrangement is to have a DVD player SDI modified and feed that into a scaler with an appropriate SDI input. If coupled with a suitable scaler, any thoughts on how something decent like an SDI modified Arcam would compare to a DVD5 via component?

Allan

Not so good. I've had both a DVD5 and a DV89+SDI into my iScan HD+. Source first still applies to DVD. A real shame the DVD5 cannot output interlaced via DVI, if it had I would not have sold it to try the DV89+SDI. I've also tried a DV79 via interlaced HDMI into the iScan, but the DV89+SDI into iScan beat it.

Simon,

We seem to be thinking along similar lines. The options under recent consideration here are SDI from a modded DV78 or HDMI from a DV79. Either of these would feed an iScan HD+/VP30, Lumagen HDP or one of the next generation scalers based around the HQV or Gennum processors such as the VAntage HD. The HQV/Gennum option would be more future proof with HD coming soon. I find this area quite interesting but unfortunately, like yourself it seems, no way to really view and evaluate these kind of things without purchasing first.

So just to confirm, you've now got a DV89+SDI but you think the DVD5 via component is still the best option? What next?

Allan

quote:

Originally posted by Allan Probin:
So just to confirm, you've now got a DV89+SDI but you think the DVD5 via component is still the best option? What next?

No I sold it very recently. The story goes, I bought the DVD5 around a year ago, loved the picture but knew I could get more out of it via my iScan HD+ if I could use it interlaced via DVI. The DVD5 also had a few bugs at the time so when a new version of firmware was available I had high hopes it would sort out the bugs and with it bring 576i via DVI. It sorted most of the bugs, but no 576i via DVI! There was promise after promise of an internal scaler on the DVD5, but no details and waiting month after month nothing more came so I got disheartened, gave up with it and sold it and spent the money upgrading my CDX2 to a CDS3. I had a Panasonic DVD/HDD recorder anyway so just went back to using that for everything. The picture from that via my scaler was pretty good, say 80-85% of the DVD5, but it wasn’t a DVD5 by a long way.

After selling the DVD5 I spotted that the Arcam DV79 was able to do HDMI at 576i so borrowed one of those from my local friendly dealer, but because I have to feed my plasma (Panasonic TH42PHD8) via component to get 1:1 pixel mapping @ 50hz, HDMI with it’s HDCP just didn’t work in my setup as I couldn’t go DV79>HDMI>HD+>VGA>TH42PHD8.

Shortly after I had an opportunity to pick up an Arcam DV89 with SDI second hand, so I snapped it up to have a play and see what SDI was all about. As you say, you can’t just go into a shop and see what it’s all about, but at the price I got it I didn’t mind trying it. I was convinced that DV89>SDI>HD+>VGA>TH42PHD8 would be my utopia so I eagerly bought an SDI module for my HD+, plugged it all in and set it up but the results were not as good as I had hoped and definitely not in the same league as the DVD5 via 576i/RGB or 576p/DVI. I’d go as far to say that the results were only marginally better than my Panasonic DVD/HDD recorder - DMR-EH60!

I recently upgraded my HD+ to a VP30 and I was going to transfer over the SDI module into that and continue using the DV89, but to be honest the increase in PQ of the VP30 over the HD+ was bigger than the PQ increase of the DV89+SDI over the DMR-EH60 and with all the hassle (for the missus not me ) of using the DVD player for one thing and a different DVD recorder for something else, I decided to ditch the DV89+SDI and just stick with the DVD/HDD recorder for the time being. So I’m currently DMR-EH60>RGB+S>VP30>RGBHV>TH42PHD8.

If I have an opportunity to pick up a reasonably priced ex-demo or second hand DVD5 I’ll probably snap it up and use DVD5>RGB+S or YUV>VP30>RGBHV>TH42PHD8.

From my experiences I think the most important parts in the chain I found were good source, good scaler, good screen and good cables. The fact of whether the cable is digital (HDMI/DVI/SDI) or analogue (RGB+S/Component) do have a small factor but I am under no illusion that digital is far better than analogue. Whilst they are technically superior, in reality the difference is not as big as most people think. I guess similarly some years ago we were told that CD was superior to Vinyl! I think the film industry and whoever is pushing HDMI with it’s HDCP for other reasons rather than PQ. I don’t see why though, if someone really wants to copy a DVD they will and HDMI+HDCP is not going to stop that.

Simon,

Thanks for that, very informative. Interesting to see that you found the VP30 a good jump up from the HD+, thats good to know. When I saw the Arcam/component->HD+ I thought it better than the HTPC but not sufficiently so for the cost involved buying these items from scratch as it were. But it did reveal a chink in the HTPCs armour and I began wondering how much better it could get simply by substituting SDI for analog component. Maybe that would widen the gap further and then that WOULD be something worth going for.

I'm impressed that you found the DVD5 via analog to be better than the Arcam via SDI. Thats a hell of a trick to pull off. I'm still not sure about ditching the HTPC though, I've lived with it for four year and I'm comfortable with it. Decisions, decisions...

Allan

Interesting discussion, gents.

quote:

...I am under no illusion that digital is far better than analogue. Whilst they are technically superior, in reality the difference is not as big as most people think...and whoever is pushing HDMI with it’s HDCP for other reasons rather than PQ.

Couldn't agree more, Simon.

I have yet to venture into high-definition display territory, and am sitting quite happily in EDTV land, with a 42PWD6 at 853x480. Because of this, I have not yet felt the urge to use a scaler. I'm not sure how much of an improvement I would get by using an external in the current setup: how much better would an iScan/DVD5 scaler be over the display scaler in stretching out the DVD 720x480 signal to 853x480? I expect it to be better, but it's back to the cost/benefit/willingness to pay situation.

I've not had the chance to demo an SDI player at home. However, I have done the component vs. HDMI comparison, with DV79 (HDMI), FMJ27a (component) and DVD5 (component and DVI). The FMJ27a was far better than the DV79 over HDMI or component. The DVD5 was better again, but by not as great a margin, over the 27a. For me, digital picture is different and not necessarily better - there's almost a visual equivalent of digital harshness in there, with a certain edginess to it. I also get fewer callibration possibilities with a digital input on my screen, and I'm not a huge fan of that limitation. I've not done extensive DVI/component comparison on my DVD5, but will get around to it - I'm very happy with the current component output.

With the source-first argument, you would expect SDI to be "up there" in terms of picture quality, but this may be a case of "better by specs" rather than reality. The quality of SDI output may well be determined by quality of MPEG decoder; quality of SDI board implementation and the rest of the framework it all sits in. I think Arcam use Zoran Vaddis as their MPEG decoder in the majority of cases.

Have either of you done an HD/ED displays comparison? Given that current content is not HD, is there really an improvement with HD displays, given that the "extra" bits are interpolated? I've not made the leap to HD, and my experiences with them so far have not been stellar, so your experiences would be welcomed.

Cheers,
Mark.

Mark,

I'm not using a HD/ED panel display as such but using a projector with a resolution of 1280x720 on to a screen 6ft across and viewed from 10ft away. Given the screen size involved and the interpolation required to fill that resolution from SD DVD I think it's clearly a challenge on the source, deinterlacing and scaling components to all get the job done right.

Although I don't have any direct experience of comparison between standard and high definition panel displays or how important a scaler would be in your situation, certainly on the projector good quality scaling is essential to avoid softening the image. Hence why I feel that if I went back to using a DVD player, a quality scaler would be mandatory to get the gains I'm looking for.

There are of course a number of upscaling DVD players on the market now, of which the DVD5 may soon be joining them if it gets an internal scaler card. My gut feeling though would be to go the external scaler route for ultimate quality, flexibility and upgradeability.

Allan

Mark,

Coming back to your DVD player comparison, I've just done a quick bit of digging around regarding the Arcam DV27a and DV79. It looks like they both use the same Vaddis 5 mpeg decoder but the main difference is that the DV27a uses a seperate SiI504 de-interlacer whereas the DV79 relies on the de-interlacing available in the Vaddis 5 chip.

I'm betting that when you did your comparison this was using progressive out from both units, yes? If so, that would explain the significant discrepancy between these two. Although I'm sure there's more to producing a great video signal than just the mpeg decoder, I'm guesssing that a comparison of the interlaced output from these two players would have been much closer.

In the context of this discussion regarding the use of an external scaler it puts both players on more of an equal footing as both would likely be running interlaced in this kind of setup.

Allan

Hi Allan,

Many thanks for your replies.

Yes, I did do the comparison of the 27a and 79 on their progressive outputs, thus putting the Vaddis 5 up against the Silicon Image SiI504 (the same chip as currently used in the iScan VP30). I've not had the opportunity to compare SDI modified players, but I think they would be good to compare against HDMI/interlaced output: there are some differences between them that could provide for differences.

I remember going through these optimisation considerations before settling on the DVD5 and it seems there are multiple avenues for optimisation, usually including more boxes! The deinterlacing and scaling parts of the DVD process appear to be the key areas of optimisation by external boxes at the moment. My approach has been to try and lessen any signal processing before we see the picture and before digital inputs/outputs came along, that was difficult to achieve.

Assumption: the world of DVD content is still SD. If I only have DVD to consider, I'd be looking for a good integrated solution in the player, that provides excellent 480p output, provided I do not have an HD display. If I was not happy with the deinterlacing on the player, I'd be looking for 480i output to a scaler that had better performance in this area. To get this, I'd need HDMI output, or SDI. We now see several manufacturers providing HDMI 480/576i output e.g. Arcam, and Ayre provide SDI output natively on their player. If I also needed scaling, I can use the scaler to do the display duties and provide pixel-to-pixel mapping for my display. If I can get all of this implemented on a single board, to very high quality and integrated to the DVD transport, then my signal chain processing is, hopefully, minimised.

I would not buy a DVD5 scaler board to provide 480/576i output over HDMI to then go to an external scaler - that doesn't make much sense to me. I would, however, buy the scaler board to provide correctly scaled pixel mapping to my display. If I want to closely match DVD content resolution while also providing for a close colourspace match I'd want an EDTV that had HDMI input that could accept 4:2:2 YCbCr signal. I'd like to see that up against an HD screen, from the same viewing distance i.e. not three feet!

The screen technology side is where I'd like to know more: do all current plasmas/projectors, for example, display 4:4:4 RGB only? So there is a potential colourspace conversion (transcode?) required between YCbCr to RGB ... and where is that best optimised: in the display device, the scaler or the player (with scaler)? Are YCbCr displays available? Is it worth it?! The big assumption here being that keeping it all digital is better/best - component still has a lot to say in this area.

Of course, overlaying, influencing and impacting all of this are the copy protection mechanisms in place. We already see it with Macrovision and HDCP and is one reason behind the PlayStation 3 delay. So, all manufacturers are working within technology confines that are heavily biased in favour of the content owners, sometimes to the detriment of the consumer. Perhaps this is also one reason why SDI is popular.

-Mark.

quote:

Hi AV@naim: does this mean we'll see an HDMI output on the scaler card?

Thanks,
Mark.

The spec at present says yes the scaler will have HDMI, also interlaced input via the player scart.