DVD5 and external scaler

The main reason for an external scaler is to get 1:1 pixel mapping with deinterlacing is a close second. Upconverting from 576i to 720p within a DVD player, yes will make a DVD players output look better, but if your screens native resolution is not the output 1280x720 then their will be secondary scaling going on inside the screen which will probably detract from PQ. The best solution is to have your DVD player and screen doing no scaler or deinterlacing at all and get your external or expensive internal scaler do all the hard work. My screen, TH42PHD8 has a native resolution of 1024x768 and no DVD player that upconverts to 1280x720 is going to look as good as an external scaler that upconverts to the exact 1024x768 of my screen.

I also used to have a TH42PWD6 fed by an iScan HD+. The scaler made the picture of Sky and DVD look so much better much better than any DVD player that output 720p. For some strange reason even though the screens native resolution was 720x480, I and many others found much better results feeding it a 1024x768 signal! I'm not entirely sure why as it goes against all the rules, but I think it may have something to do with how the screen works internally. After setting up the scaler and quickly calibrating the PWD6 to get the H&V size and position 1:1 pixel mapped perfect the picture was truely amazing. A scaler on a SD screen will make a big difference.

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Originally posted by AV@naim: The spec at present says yes the scaler will have HDMI, also interlaced input via the player scart.

Many thanks for the clarifications. So, SCART as only input is set? I can't help asking: why use SCART as the (only) input? To me, it does seem like a compromise to some extent: a scaler that provides excellent output and almost, but not quite, a scaler hub implemented. I expect we'll see a few custom cables being built!

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Originally posted by SimonJ: Upconverting from 576i to 720p within a DVD player, yes will make a DVD players output look better...

Simon, our experiences must be different! The times I've seen HD displays handling DVD (SD) content have not made me want to splash out an HD display, nor on a scaler ... yet. I find the picture can be sometimes worse, with scaling artifacts, and none have yet made me think "Wow, this is so much better". For me, the good implementations were on a par with a good SD DVD player into an ED display. I'm yet to be convinced that more resolution necessarily means a better picture: it smacks of the digital camera megapixel marketing campaigns, for me. This may change when we finally get HD content.

Cheers,
Mark.

[QUOTE] why use SCART as the (only) input? QUOTE]

The only video input on a DVD5 is on the scart..

I think it all depends on the display and scaler used and how they handle things. Pioneers HD screens were notorious for being ruthless with SD material, this years was not as bad as last years, but still not great. Play the same SD material through a HD Panasonic or Fujitsu screen and the story is very different. I think it's to do with how well the internal scalers in the screens handle it when not being used with an external scaler. Bring into the equation a good external scaler and the performance is brought up quite a few notches. The Pioneers with their external media boxes are meant to be useless for use with an external scaler, so although a scaler may improve things, you are not really doing it all the justice it deserves. Feed a HD Panasonic or Fujitsu Panel (Not TV) and 1:1 pixel mapped feed from a good external scaler and both SD and HD look great. Some satalite SD material will not look quite as good as some due to the very low bandwidth, but the PQ will definately be miles better than without the scaler. The thing is an external scaler will not automatically make every screen or projector look better as not all work well with external scalers. Do your research and get one that works well with an external scaler and the results will be good, SD>Scaler>SD screen, SD>Scaler>HD screen or HD>Scaler>HD Screen.

Thanks Simon, and AV@Naim [nice one :-)]

I can see that externalising the screen's scaler make's sense, and is a good optimisation point if you have multiple content sources, providing the current screen is good with accepting the 1:1 mapping (need to look into that one...). Specifically to the DVD5, the only digital output is DVI, so any scaler using the output from here will have to be HDCP compliant on their input, I presume, to avoid "pass-through".

I also failed to bring up display size, since my others posts were very specific to my own situation. Higher resolutions are unavoidable if you go to larger displays (and projectors) so how far you sit from the screen and what content you watch will be significant contributors to the type of display you end up with.

Don't get hung up on DVI, I bet if you compared DVD5 into scaler via DVI progressive (480p or 576p) or DVD5 into scaler via RGB or Component (480i or 567i) I doubt you'll see that much difference, both will be great! DVD5 into scaler via RGB or Component will give you the option of analogue or digital out, whereas DVI in will only 'officially' give you digital out. ;o)

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DVD5 into scaler via RGB or Component will give you the option of analogue or digital out

It's all the DACs involved in that process that I would prefer to minimize. Just a personal choice.

Think about which device you want to do the deinterlacing and remember just because one deinterlacer uses the same chip as another deinterlacer it does not nesersarily mean they'll look the same. The firmware that runs a scaler plays a VERY big part. I consistently saw significant improvments in PQ with revisions of firmware on my old HD+. As I say though there is not much in it, so in the end it may be just down to personal choice. In my case my screen cannot input native resolution via HDMI or DVI @ 50Hz only via VGA or Component. DVI and HDMI will only accept 576i/p, 720p or 1080i @50 Hz which is not 1:1 pixel mapped so looks much worse - I've tried it and played with it at great lengths.

Hi Simon,

You may be interested to know, I've sourced myself an ex-dem VP30. should be here tomorrow. Also, found a 2nd hand DV78 locally, picking it up on Friday night. Should get to play around with this stuff at the weekend. I'm intending ordering the ABT precision deinterlacing card for the VP30 just as soon as pre-orders are being taken. Hope we can get them in the UK at a price which is commensurate with the USA introductory price.

I've got high hopes for this. The deinterlacing solution should be pretty much as good as it gets for SD.

Allan

Excellent sounds good, the deinterlacing card is available to order now, I think AVS in the US are taking uk orders at $179 + Del + whatever VAT the UK decide to charge you. I also know if you look on AVForums that one dealer on there (JoeF) thinks he'll be able to sell them in the UK at a special rate which may be a safer bet and quicker. I think you need to order it before the 15th May to get the special preorder price. As soon as it is available from a UK seller at the discounted price I'll be ordering one.

The iScan VP30 arrived on Thursday as planned and I spent about an hour or so going through the menu options. Turns out that the only thing that needed adjusting was the output resolution which I set to 1280x720p to match the native resolution of the projector. I made sure that the digital output from the scaler was set to video levels (ie digital 16 to 235) and checked the calibration of the projector against the inbuilt test patterns of the scaler. I'd previously calibrated the projector against video reference levels from the DVI in the HTPC and also found it to be spot on with the scaler output - as to be expected given we are dealing with digital outputs.

Picked up the Arcam DV78 last night and connected it to the scaler using the standard 2m s-video cable that came free with the projector. Couldn't get a picture initially but turned out to be because the DVD player was set to progressive scan which shuts down all outputs except component. Situation dealt with by holding down the Stop button on the DVD player's front panel for 5 seconds which reverts it back to interlaced. Right, we're in business.

Nice thing about the VP30 is that it treats an incoming 60Hz signal as a different source to an incoming 50Hz signal, even though its coming in through the same input. That input needs calibrating twice but it means I can set different output frequencies to the projector depending on whether a R1 or R2 disk is being played. The way I've set things setup for R1, the scaler performs the inverse telecine process and outputs the resulting 24 progressive frames per second at 48Hz. For R2, the 25 frames per second are being output at 50Hz. The H79 projector can display both these frequencies natively to give a silky smooth and judder free end result. Put in a R1 disk, the whole setup flips to 48Hz, put in a R2 disk, everything becomes 50Hz. A thing of beauty, but nothing less than I expect having come from HTPC.

Considering I'm using s-video, the image is pretty damn good. Colour saturation needed backing off a little, which I did using the scaler's image calibration controls, resulting in a strong vibrant image with good saturation but still very natural looking. Detail in highlighted areas was very good and very little noise in darker areas.

Some aspects actually looked slightly better than the HTPC, for example it appeared slightly more three-dimensional and maybe a touch more natural and organic looking. However, I noticed that skin texture didn't have quite the detail and unforgiving clarity I'm used to. Here it looked a little too smoothed over, almost plastic looking.

Overall though not too bad a result so far given that this is with an s-video connection. I'd say the HTPC, at this point, is ahead by a whisker. I was secretly hoping that the DVD player + scaler would be a bit further ahead already but it's not to be. I remember back in the day of the TAG DVD32 it was often remarked that was so good that it's s-video output was still better than the best output from any other player. So s-video can be good but I feel it's still holding things back a bit here.

Next step is to get a set of component leads and see where that takes things. I'll be popping out to the shops today so I'll try and get to Maplins to pick up a set of leads. Don't want anything fancy at this stage as I havn't decided on final locations in the room for these boxes. I might also end up going the SDI route between DVD player and scaler anyway before I'm finished. Although not before I get the de-interlacer upgrade board installed and evaluated. So plenty scope for improvements ahead, this is just step one.

Allan