NAP no more..after 20+ years
Posted by: Colin Lorenson on 21 February 2004
Having owned Naim power amps for that time I've finally made the jump away. System is CDS2/XPS2, 52, 135's on Fraim, and B&W N802.
I felt for a while that the power amps were holding things back, so demmed the following - NAP300, Bryston SST 14B, ASL Hurricane and the eventual winner - the Plinius SA102.
140W @ 8ohm switchable from class A/B operation, to class A (depending on how warm you want the room to get).
For the price of a NAP250/2 I've got an amp that in my system I much preferred to a NAP300. More groove, detail, better deeper bass, no top end zings when cranked up. Just more like music.
I don't think Plinius are easy to find in the UK but I recommend an audition to those that can.
Interestingly I could get two SA-102's and go bi-amp, or switch each to monoblock 460 WPC Class A monoblocks. New neighbours I think!
So - with 135's to trade I'm pondering whether to change the CDS2 to CDS3, or 52 to 252. Any opinions on the best option?
Cheers
Colin Lorenson
I felt for a while that the power amps were holding things back, so demmed the following - NAP300, Bryston SST 14B, ASL Hurricane and the eventual winner - the Plinius SA102.
140W @ 8ohm switchable from class A/B operation, to class A (depending on how warm you want the room to get).
For the price of a NAP250/2 I've got an amp that in my system I much preferred to a NAP300. More groove, detail, better deeper bass, no top end zings when cranked up. Just more like music.
I don't think Plinius are easy to find in the UK but I recommend an audition to those that can.
Interestingly I could get two SA-102's and go bi-amp, or switch each to monoblock 460 WPC Class A monoblocks. New neighbours I think!
So - with 135's to trade I'm pondering whether to change the CDS2 to CDS3, or 52 to 252. Any opinions on the best option?
Cheers
Colin Lorenson
Posted on: 21 February 2004 by redeye
Interesting choice
Plinius about as far removed from the sound of a Naim power amp this side of something with valves in.
Get back to us in a month or two with your impressions. Be keen to hear if you still rate the new amp as highly then
red
Plinius about as far removed from the sound of a Naim power amp this side of something with valves in.
Get back to us in a month or two with your impressions. Be keen to hear if you still rate the new amp as highly then
red
Posted on: 22 February 2004 by Colin Lorenson
With respect,
I had the Plinius in the system for a month three months ago. I really don't think you've heard one playing with a Naim front end - its faster, more controlled, sweeter, and better in every way.
In reference to your forum name it does bass MUCH better than 135's or 300's, subjectively an extra octave with stunning weight and control.
Getting down and dirty, I'v.e been playing Zepp, Prince etc..at stupid levels and it does it all.
The 135's are history and I couldn't be more chuffed with my purchase.
Colin Lorenson
I had the Plinius in the system for a month three months ago. I really don't think you've heard one playing with a Naim front end - its faster, more controlled, sweeter, and better in every way.
In reference to your forum name it does bass MUCH better than 135's or 300's, subjectively an extra octave with stunning weight and control.
Getting down and dirty, I'v.e been playing Zepp, Prince etc..at stupid levels and it does it all.
The 135's are history and I couldn't be more chuffed with my purchase.
Colin Lorenson
Posted on: 22 February 2004 by Rasher
Is it easy to partner with a Naim pre? Do they do a pre too and have you tried this?
This is interesting
This is interesting
Posted on: 22 February 2004 by Tuan
quote:
Originally posted by Colin Lorenson:
With respect,
I had the Plinius in the system for a month three months ago. I really don't think you've heard one playing with a Naim front end - its faster, more controlled, sweeter, and better in every way.
In reference to your forum name it does bass MUCH better than 135's or 300's, subjectively an extra octave with stunning weight and control.
Getting down and dirty, I'v.e been playing Zepp, Prince etc..at stupid levels and it does it all.
The 135's are history and I couldn't be more chuffed with my purchase.
Colin Lorenson
Colin. Thank you for sharing your experience with us. You mentioned that you demoed the NAP300 with your N802. Please provide your assessment. I am in the process of upgrading my little B&W805 to a better model and the 802 is on the demo list. Thanks.
Posted on: 22 February 2004 by Gregor
I, too, am using the SA-102 amp with NAC282, cdx, xps2 driving Wilson Sophias. I find that I can only turn the volume control to only the 8 o'clock
position: at 8:30 or 9:00 it is VERY loud. Have you found this? I have previously used Plinius CD-Lad preamp, which is very good for the money
-these are a real bargain used -and also CJ Premier 17ls with this amp, but the 282 is FAR superior.
position: at 8:30 or 9:00 it is VERY loud. Have you found this? I have previously used Plinius CD-Lad preamp, which is very good for the money
-these are a real bargain used -and also CJ Premier 17ls with this amp, but the 282 is FAR superior.
Posted on: 22 February 2004 by Colin Lorenson
Rasher - Using a Chord Company Din to 2 x RCA interconnect for the Supercap to SA102. Its a green slinky thing but I can't remeber the name - its one of their mid-range cables.
Tuan - The 802's were great with my 135's. With the 300's the music was tidier, better organised and controlled - clearly better but not enough to justify the significant upgrade cost. The Plinius was better again with the same control but with more detail, body and natural timbre to the sounds.
I had N804's before which I preferred to the 805's. All you can really say about N802's is that they everything MUCH better but they need a lot of room, take an age to run in properly (think 3 to 4 months) and as I have just found out need a powerful amp to work at their best.
Gregor - Intersting to see that you use one as well - I heard the Plinius Pre and the 102 driving the new Proac D80, and thought it sounded sterile. Much better with a Naim fromnt end. I find that the SA102 needs "one hour" less on the 52 volume control for the same volume as the 135's - so it seems to have more gain. Given that Sophias are very efficient I'm not surprised you don't need to use much gain from the 282.
In general terms my system with the Plinius now gives me a very large part of what I heard when listening to CDS2/XPS2 - 552/500 and B&W N800. Obviously not all of it, but enough of it, at a reasonable price, to keep me happy (well, for a while anyway).
CDS3 or 252 next I think
Tuan - The 802's were great with my 135's. With the 300's the music was tidier, better organised and controlled - clearly better but not enough to justify the significant upgrade cost. The Plinius was better again with the same control but with more detail, body and natural timbre to the sounds.
I had N804's before which I preferred to the 805's. All you can really say about N802's is that they everything MUCH better but they need a lot of room, take an age to run in properly (think 3 to 4 months) and as I have just found out need a powerful amp to work at their best.
Gregor - Intersting to see that you use one as well - I heard the Plinius Pre and the 102 driving the new Proac D80, and thought it sounded sterile. Much better with a Naim fromnt end. I find that the SA102 needs "one hour" less on the 52 volume control for the same volume as the 135's - so it seems to have more gain. Given that Sophias are very efficient I'm not surprised you don't need to use much gain from the 282.
In general terms my system with the Plinius now gives me a very large part of what I heard when listening to CDS2/XPS2 - 552/500 and B&W N800. Obviously not all of it, but enough of it, at a reasonable price, to keep me happy (well, for a while anyway).
CDS3 or 252 next I think
Posted on: 22 February 2004 by kuma
quote:
Originally posted by Gregor:
I have previously used Plinius CD-Lad preamp, which is very good for the money
-these are a real bargain used -and also CJ Premier 17ls with this amp, but the 282 is FAR superior.
Did you find CJ 17ls to be slow?
I found Naim preamp gain is pretty high. Sophia's sensitivity is higher than my speakers ( 87db. ) and I normaly does slightly passed 9 O'clock and pretty loud. ( in a medium size room )
[This message was edited by kuma on MONDAY 23 February 2004 at 01:43.]
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by NigelP
Colin,
This is an interesting thread and one that I think that Naim needs to think about. Personally, I am still very happy with my NAP500 as I am driving NBLs. I liked the N802 (I formerly owned N804) but found that the Naim amps (even the NAP500) struggled to deliver the massive amounts of current needed at high listening levels. I know of someone who bought a pair of N800 and used two NAP300 instead of a single NAP500 as this was the only way of making sure that the amp didn't clip. I know that other power amps do not have this problem although there is something about the 300/500 that just feels better to me which is why I chose to use NBL instead of Nautilus rather than chossing Nautilus and trying to use another power amp instead of Naim. I do feel (and this is a personal subjective thing) that my 500/NBL setup is better than a 500/802 setup and so am happy with my choice. Your thread here, though, is excellent food for thought and something many folks should think about seriously before parting with their money. I have also heard Brystons on the end of Naim preamps and they sound great!
Nigel
This is an interesting thread and one that I think that Naim needs to think about. Personally, I am still very happy with my NAP500 as I am driving NBLs. I liked the N802 (I formerly owned N804) but found that the Naim amps (even the NAP500) struggled to deliver the massive amounts of current needed at high listening levels. I know of someone who bought a pair of N800 and used two NAP300 instead of a single NAP500 as this was the only way of making sure that the amp didn't clip. I know that other power amps do not have this problem although there is something about the 300/500 that just feels better to me which is why I chose to use NBL instead of Nautilus rather than chossing Nautilus and trying to use another power amp instead of Naim. I do feel (and this is a personal subjective thing) that my 500/NBL setup is better than a 500/802 setup and so am happy with my choice. Your thread here, though, is excellent food for thought and something many folks should think about seriously before parting with their money. I have also heard Brystons on the end of Naim preamps and they sound great!
Nigel
Posted on: 23 February 2004 by Colin Lorenson
Nigel.
I concur with your friend who felt that the 500 struggled with 800's. Played loud the 500 definitely runs out of breath. The 500 is a great amp but much too much money.
Of the Naim speakers the NBL is the only one that I have heard and liked, but I prefer the 802, and its quite a bit cheaper as well.
I concur with your friend who felt that the 500 struggled with 800's. Played loud the 500 definitely runs out of breath. The 500 is a great amp but much too much money.
Of the Naim speakers the NBL is the only one that I have heard and liked, but I prefer the 802, and its quite a bit cheaper as well.
Posted on: 24 February 2004 by Top Cat
How loud do you guys play your music? I mean, I have heard a CDS3/552/500/Nautilus 800s played very loud in a 20'-ish room, without even the merest hint of strain.
So, maybe you guys have much bigger rooms or lisen much louder or perhaps the 800 is easier to drive than the 802s?
I'd happily trade my system for that 552/500/800 system, though the differences aren't vast for the larger part (mainly better bass I'd say).
John
So, maybe you guys have much bigger rooms or lisen much louder or perhaps the 800 is easier to drive than the 802s?
I'd happily trade my system for that 552/500/800 system, though the differences aren't vast for the larger part (mainly better bass I'd say).
John
Posted on: 24 February 2004 by neil w
im with john here , irun 552 , 300 on dem , 802 and cant crank it up past 12 noon it is just tooooo loud , for fuck sake the windows will fall out
neil
neil
Posted on: 24 February 2004 by Colin Lorenson
TC and Neil W
TC - I've heard Bob's system with the 800's as you have. Yes it goes loud with a 500, but it also "flattens off" and hardens up a little when pushed. Last time I spoke he was thinking of bi-amping with 500's.
Neil - I'm gobsmacked that you can run your 552 at up to 12 o'clock. That is loud, unless you've adjusted the gain on your input to less that a standard 52 input. I was told that the 800 is a slightly easier load than the 802 as well.
FWIW - I was advised that 2 x NAP250/2 bi-amping 802's would probably better than 1 x 300, at much the same price. Better control.
Cheers
TC - I've heard Bob's system with the 800's as you have. Yes it goes loud with a 500, but it also "flattens off" and hardens up a little when pushed. Last time I spoke he was thinking of bi-amping with 500's.
Neil - I'm gobsmacked that you can run your 552 at up to 12 o'clock. That is loud, unless you've adjusted the gain on your input to less that a standard 52 input. I was told that the 800 is a slightly easier load than the 802 as well.
FWIW - I was advised that 2 x NAP250/2 bi-amping 802's would probably better than 1 x 300, at much the same price. Better control.
Cheers
Posted on: 25 February 2004 by NigelP
How loud do I listen to my system Loud! I love the 800 (not so convinced about the 802) and heard it on the end of the 500. Sounded great but, at times, the 500 did lose control. Not something that I would expect of a £11k power amp! The Nautilus are very difficult to drive. In fact, I have been told that the 802 sounds better with two 300s than one 500. This flies in the face of Naim's hierarchy. Now I'm thinking of going active and seriously considering selling my 500 to go with a triple 300 solution! Food for thought?
Nigel
Nigel
Posted on: 25 February 2004 by Tuan
quote:
Originally posted by NigelP:
_How loud do I listen to my system_ Loud! I love the 800 (not so convinced about the 802) and heard it on the end of the 500. Sounded great but, at times, the 500 did lose control. Not something that I would expect of a £11k power amp! The Nautilus are very difficult to drive. In fact, I have been told that the 802 sounds better with two 300s than one 500. This flies in the face of Naim's hierarchy. Now I'm thinking of going active and seriously considering selling my 500 to go with a triple 300 solution! Food for thought?
Nigel
Before selling your NAP500, you may want to try powering the N800 with high level Bryston amps. Here in Canada, they test Bryston amp with Naim pre-amp with great success. The money from the NAP500 will be more than enough to get you the best of Bryston... and Bryston amps are good. A demo may please you...
Posted on: 25 February 2004 by Colin Lorenson
Tuan,
This seems like a circular discussion. Per my first post I demmed the Byston 14B SST and whilst it was very good I found it a little cold and clinical.
I much preferred the Plinius amp - Same control but warmer sounding, with a fuller, more life-like sound to instruments and voice. YMMV.
NigelP - I agree that the N800 is an amazing loudspeaker - I feel that the N802 is cut from the same cloth, but just a bit less capable in all areas. You seem to confirm my thoughts that the big B&W's really need bi-amping to deliver their very best.
This seems like a circular discussion. Per my first post I demmed the Byston 14B SST and whilst it was very good I found it a little cold and clinical.
I much preferred the Plinius amp - Same control but warmer sounding, with a fuller, more life-like sound to instruments and voice. YMMV.
NigelP - I agree that the N800 is an amazing loudspeaker - I feel that the N802 is cut from the same cloth, but just a bit less capable in all areas. You seem to confirm my thoughts that the big B&W's really need bi-amping to deliver their very best.
Posted on: 26 February 2004 by JohnMak
Hi Colin Lorenson,
What are going going to do with your 135's?
I've just picked up some used SBL's here in Vietnam - what a fluke - and love them. I suspect a Naim powered system (used)is being thrust upon me. johnmcmillan2000@hotmail.com
What are going going to do with your 135's?
I've just picked up some used SBL's here in Vietnam - what a fluke - and love them. I suspect a Naim powered system (used)is being thrust upon me. johnmcmillan2000@hotmail.com
Posted on: 26 February 2004 by Stephen Dupuis
Tuan,
Check your privates (topics that is).
steve
Check your privates (topics that is).
steve
Posted on: 26 February 2004 by Tuan
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stephen Dupuis:
Tuan,
Check your privates (topics that is).
Steve,
I response to your private topic.
Tuan,
Check your privates (topics that is).
Steve,
I response to your private topic.