Among some subjects he think he can "attack" me,
Vuk says that like a child I can't make my own decition and I want an advice from Paul Stephenson about stands.
I want to tell you my story - which I think it is a good one to learn why we all have to be careful when we come to a conclusion about sound and quality.
(BTW - I didn't read any post here chalanging Naim recommendation for interconnects and I don't see the difference to the stands in this manner).
First a therotical thought - let's assume that I visit to Canada in Mike's neighborhood. I enter a dealer who owns Naim equipment and Mana and Hutter stands (or any other stand - you name it).
I want to decide if to buy a Mana or a Hutter.
The dealer - a very proffesional one - sets a system like mine on a Mana and I give it a listening.
Then, the dealer sets the same system on a Hutter. While he does so, a superball game starts and for a reason there is a problem with the electricity. Now I'm listening and the obvious conclusion as I understand what happened to Mike is that Hutter is a failure.
Now, if everyone asks me - I'll tell him to keep away from Hutter.
This is one reason why I think I can trust only Naim if they can recommend a stand - because I can trust only them in knowing the correct environment for a test like this.
When I say so, members here are telling me that even Paul Stephenson is not an objective person about it because of some reasons. I don't like the excuse like "listen to Vuk - he doesn't earn anything, he is objective". True - he is objective but he has limited possibilities to test stands (so I think) - he tested them in different places and different times - how can he be sure about the environment when he listened to a system.
But I must admit that in this case Vuk himself says that his opinion is his and depands in time and location and when he says it by himself, the only outcome of this is that we must try to find - if possible - an objective test about stands.
My personal story -
No matter why, in the last 4 years I moved through 4 appartments.
4 years ago I lived in the same appartment I'm living in now. My system based on an Axix, Mission pcm 7000 cd player, Nait 3 and Rega EL8 speakers.
With this system I moved to a woman's appartnment the woman didn't like to listen to music - so setting the system wasn't exectly as sholud be.
Then I moved to my mother's house (who was very ill and died a year ago).
In this house I'd set the system in a big room which had a big door to abother room - so it was quite a large space.
The first improvement I did there was to buy IBL's.
Naim dealer fixed them to me and it was a great improvement, but the speakers didn't provide a good bass.
Point 1 - if someone was asking me in this point of time about the IBl's I'd said that they are great but are not quite good in the lows.
True ? yes, my truth at the time.
Later, I read in the forum that the IBL's don't work well in large space.
So I moved the system to a smaller room.
Wow!!! Naim forum is great - ask me now, the IBL's are great in the lows too. True ? yes , again my truth.
The next upgrade was to buy a CDi instead of the Mission and a LP12 instead of the Axis - each is a great improvement for itself.
Few month ago I moved again to the appartment I'm living in now (I bought my x-wife part).
I set the system in the way I wanted, I posted the pictures and no one noticed (or maybe it is not interesting) that my system is site when the back of the components are not against the wall
and the 140 and the flatcap are in a separate shelves far from the rest of the system).
A great sound (Shosh argued me a lot about this "not astatic arrangement" but living alone gives you some advantages ...).
In this point of time, Omer gave me his Mana soundframe for a test.
The soundframe was a great device, improved sound
in almost most aspects - and yes, Andrew, I could listen with a lower setting of the volume knob... .
Ask me in this point of time - the soundframe is great - true ? mine truth.
While assembling the Cdi to the Mana, with Omer's help on the phone (he tought me a lot about the siting) I found that there is a problem with one leg of the CDi (not as precise as should be).
I put a paper under this leg.
When I gave back the Mana to Omer, I felt I miss it. At this point of time, the Mana is still great - and still, my truth.
Due to a problem in the electricity at my house (no connected to the stereo) the electrician replaced the main board fuses.
I also sited the CDi as should be on the original
stand with a paper under the short leg.
Wow - the new fuses board made wonders to the sound. Now I remember that in my Mother's house there was a very old fuses board. How could it affect the sound of the IBL's in the big room - now I don't know.
Meantime, I got a shimes to put under the "ill" leg, another improvement in sitting the CDi.
How is the soundframe ? Don't know, the sound now is better than the sound with the Mana with the oldest fuses board and without the shim.
How is the Fuses board in Vuk's house ? In Mr Pig's house ? What else can affect their subjective feeling that Mana is the best?
Maybe Mana is the best and maybe it is not. Anyone of us should know (I think so) that every experience of him is very personal and subjective.
To my mind, if we agree about this, we will be able to argue in more pleasurable language.
Vuk is also claiming against me that I pester
members here.
I can promise you that I don't intend to pester or insult any member here. I realy post my thoghts
and I do it freely with no delay and bad attention.
As I said many times before I'm ready to be criticized by anyone and I take seriously any criticism against me.
Reading the posts here, I still think that I have the knowledge and the ability to post about some subjects in a more objective way than others - and if I'm cynical sometimes, it is only for the fan.
Arie
Posted on: 02 February 2001 by Tony L
quote:
True ? yes, my truth at the time.
Good point and well put. All anyone here can post is their own experiences, and all posts should obviously be taken entirely in that light.
Like you (and for that matter Vuk, and probably everyone else here) I have formed opinions on certain components or setup techniques only to find that with further experience my opinion changed. I just try to hear as many options as possible and choose what works for me.
The only thing that gets my back up a little is any form of evangelism towards any particular cause - whilst I use and really like Mana supports, and would recommend anyone to audition them, the arguments here become unbelievably tedious after a while.
I like your 'personal truth' thing, and it is very obvious that say Vuk (Mana), Dave Cattlin (Quadraspire), John Channing (Hutter) all have very different truths, and there is nothing at all wrong with this. And agreeing with someone on one thing doesn't mean you agree on everything... Kans anyone! However people coming out with absolutes should be considered the idiots they no doubt are. Fundamentalists seldom have a holistic view!
What I am trying to do is learn from each school, I use and love Mana, though have learnt a great deal about mains and cable dressing from the non-ferrous school which has improved the sound of my system greatly.
Tony.
Posted on: 02 February 2001 by Ron The Mon
Arie,
I just wanted to let you know that I rate this thread with 5 stars!!! Mostly because you made several logical points (a bit unusual for you) (just kidding). In defense of Vuk, his "how I stand" thread was good for several reasons; first, he actually posted a graph which can be used by others to do the same as he, and perhaps more exhaustively and with different results. And with the exception of a few Naim personnel or a few select dealers, I doubt there are few who have heard or compared dozens of Naim hi-fis, let alone stands (which got Chris Koster on board, thank you Vuk). Vuk did this in a weeks time while on vacation. My only disappointment is that with his photographic talent he didn't take pictures of the various systems he evaluated with the owners.
Arie, I agree that often many members here do comparisons which are biased or subjective vs. objective. I learned as a hi-fi salesman that when someone spends hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars on poor equipment it takes a good demo and a select choice of words to keep from insulting someone, especially when they think they're right!! You have to be double careful because your translations are sometimes very bad. Even though your posts are occasionally annoying, in poor English, and pestering, I am your number-one fan!!!
Ron The Mon
P.S.
Arie, how about posting more in The Music Room. Music is definitely more subjective than hi-fi, you'll offend less people, and I for one would like to know more specifically what you listen to.
Posted on: 02 February 2001 by Simon Jenkins
I think that Arie has made some very good points here.
We all obviously have similar broad preferences in what we want out of a hi-fi or we would not have all bought Naim kit.
It's also equally obvious that there are huge variances in the specific preferences, hence the arguments about stands, LP12 or Rega (or Well Tempered), is the 102 better than the 72 , and so on.
Above all what this proves is that we are all different and have different taste's.
In term's of hi-fi I guess this really means, sure listen to Vuk's or Arie's or whoevers suggestions, but for the final proof dont take their word for it, listen for yourself. If you can do this at home over an extended period then better still. Find a good dealer, build a relationship with them and take home two amps or two racks for a week before paying any money (except maybe a deposit), if the dealer is not willing to do this spend your money else where.
Simon
Vive le difference
Posted on: 02 February 2001 by Top Cat
quote:
Julian Vereker...apparently trusted Chris Koster above all when it came to system setup?
Perhaps this is true, but in light of Mr Koster's recent posts against stands and what not, I know that we should take his advice with a (very big) pinch of salt. Maestro at setting up Naim, perhaps, I have never met Chris and couldn't comment, but he clearly is no authority in my book - the positive effect of decent stands is so blindingly obvious that to say otherwise just reeks of bull-poo....
On the other hand, I agree and think Arie should take some time out from this forum and just get back to the listening and enjoying. He obviously enjoyed the Mana and would possibly enjoy the 'Hooter' too. However, chill out and just enjoy the music - after all, isn't that what this is all about...???
John (who admits to having his feet firmly in the Mana camp through a process of audition (I did a lot of auditioning before buying), listening and so on). I even owned a Quadraspire!
Posted on: 02 February 2001 by David Dever
quote:
Perhaps this is true, but in light of Mr Koster's recent posts against stands and what not, I know that we should take his advice with a (very big) pinch of salt. Maestro at setting up Naim, perhaps, I have never met Chris and couldn't comment, but he clearly is no authority in my book - the positive effect of decent stands is so blindingly obvious that to say otherwise just reeks of bull-poo....
...unless you've got a big Naim system, at which point the stands can significantly negatively affect the performance. Hence Chris' remarks, which, with active DBLs myself (and long tired of the stand debates), I must concur. (And I use some Mana too...)
Outside of this discussion (and, perhaps sympathetic to those points which Chris was trying to make), there are so many more important issues relating to system setup, with Naim equipment and the stands of your choice as controlled factors--there are still plenty of issues (as Tony mentioned above) with cable/connector dressing, rack positioning (with respect to the room itself), and even equipment positioning on the same set of racks. As one's system gets better, its performance is easier to smear, therefore the effect of equipment stand choice should (after a certain point) converge or disappear.
Dave Dever, NANA
P.S. Slap around all you want--it might wake someone up who otherwise might not be watching the lions eat.
Posted on: 04 February 2001 by David Dever
quote:
If I understood you, you suggest we should give the stand issue a rest and get onto some of the other stuff of interest.
Not exactly...
quote:
What I want to say is that it is only after months of tracking the unfolding comments on the stand issue I have finally come to realize stands may not be the most important next upgrade I can make.
Precisely--stands do make a difference, but it's often not an "upgrade"--just different, or more suitable for your room. Nothing less, nothing more.
quote:
It took me months of following the ebb and flow of the arguments to get as complete a picture as I have, and I may still not have it right.
Are you satisfied by the performance of your existing system? If so, why change it?
Answer that last question very carefully--if your priorities change along the way to building a decent system, perhaps you missed something crucial at the outset.
quote:
I think we should let these issues, concerns, topics whatever, achieve their own level. Those who become bored or indifferent need not attend to the issue. I can see where the more knowledgeable want to move on, but not to close down the discussion, surely not. Those of us who are still on the learning curve benefit from the ongoing nature of these threads. At least I do.
This is hardly a thread to which one can become bored or indifferent to--the problem is that there just does not exist, at the dealer level (on the whole), the resources to properly comparatively demonstrate equipment stands with complete systems.
No amount of "satisfaction guaranteed or your money back" (in the States, this is pretty common) can reconstitute a proper A-B dem--our memories are short, and what might turn out to be impressive along one continuum might short-sighted on others.
The lesson: dem stands comparatively, no matter how hard or long it takes (one could do this quite simply with a CD player + integrated amp--it gets pretty arduous with an active system), then leave the stuff alone--no cones, extra layers, magic bricks or pixie dust to add later.
If someone feels that I'm skewing this toward "black boxes" rather than stands, then cut the difference and spend the remaining dosh on music. Easy, isn't it?
Dave Dever, NANA
