I am starting to have second thoughts...

Posted by: Steve Toy on 15 September 2001

I reinstalled my system in my room after my visit to Jonathan Ribee's, where I was seriously blown away by the capabilities of Mana Phase Four (still am.)
I was probably more careful setting up my QS Refererence table than I was in the first instance, having had three goes at it now.
I noticed that my somewhat Flat Earth system, whilst it did not have the great sense of air, space, blackness, sheer scale, and body of Jonathan's system, which I did enjoy, it has a musical flow, excellent pitch, and wonderful cohesion. If there is a tune hidden in there, my system seems to lay it bare - even with lots of other tunes playing at the same time, and a rhythmic capability which just keeps you listening...
I'm not just talking about leading edges, but the whole story of each and every note and percussive rap, ie; the beginning, middle and end of each in its proper time frame relative to all the others, none seemingly overlooked or passed over.
As a result, the sheer depth of image suffers a little as so much musical info is pushed to the fore.
However, for me, this is how it should be - this is what makes music so emotionally satisfying. So what is working for me?
Is it the speakers, which are much more Flat Earth, or is it the QS Reference table?
I hope it is the speakers, as that would simplify matters a lot, as I wish to embrace what Mana can do for me in lots of areas. Unfortunately, if the tune is lost through my rather up-front speakers, using the Mana, then the QS will have to stay put,
and Mana will be limited to Soundbases under the speakers and a wallshelf under the turntable.

Tony Lonorghan,
You have Kans, which would seem to display similar characteristics as my Naos, given what has been said of them, and also what I have heard through Isobariks.
So, before I actually commit myself to the swap, could we possibly do a dem at your place? After all, I do believe you have yet to hear the full-spec QS Reference. I fear that what we both expect to hear from our music is just too similar, whereas Jonathan and I have different expectations of what we want to hear, and his speakers are too different to what I'm used to in order to really demonstrate genuine PR&T.

Vuk, and other fully-committed Mana enthusiasts,
Maybe, just maybe, there are still a few *weeny boy* tendencies left in me...

It's (sometimes) a nice day for it, have a good one! ,
steve.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on SUNDAY 16 September 2001 at 04:19.]

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on SUNDAY 16 September 2001 at 04:47.]

Posted on: 15 September 2001 by Steve Toy

Thanks very much for your rapid response, Vuk, on this matter, which is troubling me more than a bit - as I wish to consolidate the Pr&T characterisics through upgrading my supports as well as other aspects of my system - without making any costly backward steps...
I think you will appreciate my wish to investigate such matters fully where any opportunities to do so may arise.

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

Posted on: 16 September 2001 by Steve Toy

Pog's system does PR&T perfectly, better than I've ever heard, anywhere.
As for demming all the other stands, I think you can be too exhaustive and be left even more confused. The QS Reference does things right in my system, at this level I'm at. The Mana is a vey attractive proposition because of its upgradability - and you don't just seem to get *more* of the same with Mana: adding extra stages seems to throw in all kinds of wonderful sonic goodies. I think the contest is strictly QS Ref. versus Mana, and Mana Phase One or Two is (possibly) losing out a little, but the extra Phases will win hands down, I think.

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

Posted on: 16 September 2001 by Alex S.

I have never heard QS ref and I can only do Mana quasi phase 3 on any one piece of kit so I offer no sonic advice.

Instead I pose a question: Are you a hi-fi upgrader by nature, not necessarily obsessive but now and then bitten by the bug? If the answer is yes then buy Mana, if no buy QS ref.

If you're an upgrader, in a year's time you'll either be buying more Mana to go with what you have or you'll be selling QS ref in order to buy Mana for the first time.

Tony L is a downgrader/sidegrader by nature so do yourselves a favour - get on with that swap.

Alex

Posted on: 16 September 2001 by Steve Toy

I'm definitely an upgrader, and I want the path to be straight.

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

Posted on: 16 September 2001 by Martin Payne

Steven,

this is the benefit of an A-B-A demo (try something new and hear the benefits, then go back to the old and see if anything was actually missing in the 'B' sound).

In my specific case, I find that my LP12 has noticeably better musical flow on a locally produced steel table than on Mana. The Mana goes deeper & higher and is less grainy, but the other is more musical & tuneful.

You pays your money, and takes your choice...

Best if you can do the side-by-side comparison. I would be a little wary of the results, though, as the characterful presentation of the Kans might skew the result.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 16 September 2001 by Tony L

quote:
So, before I actually commit myself to the swap, could we possibly do a dem at your place? After all, I do believe you have yet to hear the full-spec QS Reference. I fear that what we both expect to hear from our music is just too similar, whereas Jonathan and I have different expectations of what we want to hear, and his speakers are too different to what I'm used to in order to really demonstrate genuine PR&T.

Hmmm, I thought we had a deal. I have to admit I have little interest in demming etc, I have already done it to my satisfaction and made up my mind, if you are pulling out of the deal (that in my opinion you (publicly) committed to) then I am afraid my only interest from now is in selling the Mana. If you want to swap then I am definitely still on, otherwise the Mana is firmly back on the second hand market.

Tony.

(More than slightly annoyed about this, but tempered by the fact that my new CDX rocks…).

Posted on: 16 September 2001 by Steve Toy

I can appreciate your irritation by my appearing to have cold feet and your believing that I am backing out of a deal.
However, consider the situation from my point of view for just a moment: you stated yourself that the QS does the tunes better. The first thing that I noticed when I set up my system again was that I could hear tunes again - the A-B-A demo thing. Rather than concluding immediately that the QS must be better than the Mana, I then explored other variables, like my speakers.
I am sure that Kans are indeed *different* to my Naos, but I have reason to believe that they both do tunes, and they both time.
That is good enough for me to be able to discover for sure what is delivering the *tune* to my system - the speakers or the stands.
I also hoped you would welcome the opportunity to find out for yourself in your own listening environment. As for when it was to take place, we are talking about just over a week, so you would lose nothing in time if we both agreed (unfortunately) that the QS did things in a more musical way, and you could still then sell your Mana amp rack.
I would have considered, and would still consider this more of a social occasion than a business deal. I had no intention, for example, of accepting any contribution for petrol - or diesel in my case.

I have aired my misgivings on this forum in order to seek reasurance that I was doing the right thing given how I'd like my system to sound.
I felt much better about things as a result, and I still believe that Mana is the long term answer for me regarding equipment supports.
As for the business of hi-fi, I prefer to leave that in the hands of the manufacturers and dealers. We on this forum should operate more as friends IMHO. To me that means acting in the mutual interests of those concerned, rather than playing hard-ball, which could yet, and probably will include a straight swap instead of respectively trying to hit the second-hand market with our gear.
FWIW, I didn't publicly commit to anything, I merely made the enquiry. You used the term, "done!"
I hope we can still be friends, have a few beers - and do that dem without any obligation on either part.

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on MONDAY 17 September 2001 at 05:58.]

Posted on: 17 September 2001 by Alex S.

quote:
We on this forum should operate more as friends IMHO. To me that means acting in the mutual interests of those concerned, rather than playing hard-ball, which could yet, and probably will include a straight swap instead of respectively trying to hit the second-hand market with our gear.

In the interests of friendship I am willing to swap my Hi-Cap and a black Snaic for a pair of Wilson Benesch Discoveries.

Alex

BTW Steven - while your doing the circuit why not come and experience my hybrid Base/SO/Mana racks - that'll really confuse you.

Posted on: 17 September 2001 by Tony L

quote:
I also hoped you would welcome the opportunity to find out for yourself in your own listening environment. As for when it was to take place, we are talking about just over a week, so you would lose nothing in time if we both agreed (unfortunately) that the QS did things in a more musical way, and you could still then sell your Mana amp rack.

My view is that a dem at mine is totally meaningless, IIRC when you tried the Mana rack at Jonathan’s you reckoned that it was about equal at Phase 2, and started to get better at Phase 3 and above – I only have the 5 tier rack, so can’t get to any phase levels (TF bought my Ref Table), and being honest even if you could borrow a soundstage or two I would not want the further spike holes in my maple floor just for a dem that I already know my views on! (the Sounstages are a substantially wider footprint).

I think you need to go with your dem, this is exactly what I am doing, I compared phase 2 against the QS and much preferred the QS (hence my doing this!), but I can fully understand why someone would make the reverse decision… and you did. Your decision is even more relevant if you plan to buy into the Mana multi phase philosophy as you imply, I did not ever intend to go beyond Phase 2, so it was that which I compared against. Also, IMHO your Rega speakers are a good deal better than A3s you used for your dem, not as good as my Kans mind you

Tony.

Posted on: 17 September 2001 by Steve Toy

Tony,
Firstly, if you have an aversion to spikes, what are you going to do with the ones that support the QS? I am quite certain that their footprint cannot be exactly the same as the Marna!
Also, purely as a temporary measure, it is possible to use coins under the spikes to prevent damage to the nice flooring beneath... For this I would usually recommend two-pence coins, but respecting your thrifty nature, I think we could get away with penny pieces. Those bloody little five-pence pieces are terrible value-for-money, aren't they

Secondly, I think you called while I was out working -- I don't know anyone else with your area code

I'm off to Paul Duerden's later today -- should get there before 5pm. I may well contact you from there if I get chance.

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on TUESDAY 18 September 2001 at 02:59.]

Posted on: 18 September 2001 by Tony L

quote:
Also, purely as a temporary measure, it is possible to use coins under the spikes to prevent damage to the nice flooring beneath...

Coins makes things sound pretty awful though, I know JW does not approve of them at all. I would far prefer it if you could just make your decision as to whether you want to swap the stands or not without expecting me to dem stuff for you – I really want to just shift the Mana and move on. I have re-advertised my stand, so please let me know your decision ASAP.

quote:
I'm off to Paul Duerden's later today -- should get there before 5pm. I may well contact you from there if I get chance.

I will be at home all afternoon, so please give me a ring to let me know what you want to do.

Tony.

Posted on: 18 September 2001 by Steve Toy

I'll call you at the earliest oportunity when I've heard a bit of PD's Mana. MY Phase Four experience chez Jonathan was undetaken with the Mother of all hangovers - so *monumental* that it eclipsed the impact of the Mana improvement.

.
I think there is no need to do a dem at your place, although I'd be interested to hear a few tunes, you know how it is!

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

Posted on: 18 September 2001 by Tony L

quote:
I think there is no need to do a dem at your place, although I'd be interested to hear a few tunes, you know how it is!

No worries there at all, I wouldn't have let you leave without inflicting some music on you - the only thing I wanted to avoid was shifting all my kit about without getting a deal.

Tony.

Posted on: 18 September 2001 by ken c

... the only thing I wanted to avoid was shifting all my kit about without getting a deal.

tony, careful, you are beginning to sound like a dealer who doesn't want his time wasted doing worthless demos from masquerading "customers"...

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 18 September 2001 by Martin Payne

quote:
Originally posted by Stallion:
What you are currently experiencing is indicative of your obvious appreciation of the qualities Quadraspire Reference racks bring to Naim kit; they highlight and develop the electronics ability to 'play tunes' like no other rack I know, hence why I own one.
I think the reason you initially found the Mana 'better' is that these resonances make the music sound superficially 'exciting' by pushing the music forward into the mix, an effect which I initially liked, but found tiresome in the long run. You will at first feel you have 'gained' improved dynamics and resolution, however, this is at the expense of musicality and, in my opinion, are false by products of the resonances. I think Naim users like the sound of Mana because it shares similar sonic traits to Naim equipment; speed, agility, etc, and has a slightly 'forward' presentation. As Naim kit is not exactly 'shy' in this respect, I find combining the two a case of over egging the pudding.

Stallion,

myself and two friends tried exactly this sort of experiment tonight - moving CDS-II head unit from Mana Reference to a locally produced table. I found the following differences (& one friend agreed):-

Some excitement, brightness & bass weight is lost.

But the sounds in the mid-range are instruments and voices playing together. Voices are much more real and the bass plays tunes

Alex S. recently said:-

quote:
To my mind Mana does have a sonic signiature which ... does not suit the CDS2 which becomes edgy and disjointed

Bingo. Direct hit, Alex.

I recently changed back from Kans to Isobariks, and wondered why I was getting such different results. I was very relieved to read your posting within a day or so.

What I don't understand is why none of these charcteristics had been evident when using Kans, but became big problems with Isobariks (two different pairs, driven both passively & actively).

Just that much more revealing, even a 20 year old pair with knackered tweeters?

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 19 September 2001 by Nigel Cavendish

quote:
I still feel that if the Mana products were the best sounding support to use with Naim equipment, then Naim would not let politics get in the way. After all, when they are demming their kit at shows they want it to sound as good as possible to sell it right?

Yes of course, I can hear the Pauls saying it: "Mana is best, don't waste your money on the Fraim"

cheers

Nigel

Posted on: 19 September 2001 by Nigel Cavendish

I make a point of not reading posts too closely - I mean where's the fun in that?

As for what naim did at demos, as opposed to hi-fi shows,(pre-fraim), I have been to a couple and Hutter was not used. In fact they used different stands at each.

Pre-fraim, naim had no explicit policy or preference for stands and often refused on this forum to recommend anything.

cheers

Nigel

Posted on: 20 September 2001 by Tony L

quote:
However,the QS Ref. does capture all the tunes ad play them together beautifully and in time -perhaps at the expense of just about everything else, though!

Steven, I have been trying to contact you by every means I know of - please let me know what you want to do regarding my stand. I have another buyer, and I will commit to that deal if I do not hear from you today. My email address is in my profile.

Tony.

PS Sorry Naim dudes for using the forum in this way, but I really don't seem able to contact Steven any other way at the moment.

Posted on: 20 September 2001 by Steve Toy

Tony,
I think you may have sussed out why I have been somewhat tardy in replying to you. My above posting is testimony to my whereabouts. Also this Forum website seemed to go down up there in the sunny Northwest.

I'll email you on the subject...

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on THURSDAY 20 September 2001 at 16:50.]

Posted on: 09 November 2001 by Damon J

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Duerden:
In order to avoid costly backward steps, I think it is essential that you also consider ,BASE, Hutter , Townsend Seismic Stand, Stands Unique , Wilson Benesch, Frameworks and one or two others of your own choice.

Don't forget the Stands Unique Reference which is claimed to do many clever things but seems to be selectively ignored in the stand debates on this forum.....

Regards,

Damon J