ID Cards - good idea or not?

On balance I would be in favour of UK ID cards, provided the data base itself held only the following information.

Biometric measurements and blood group for absolute certainty of ID - possibly including finger prints, and even DNA profile. Date and place of birth, NI number, NHS number, and Address.

Other existing records [including doctors recoreds] could quite reasonably be kept, as now, separately, so that accessing such information would remain unchanged.

ATB from Fredrik

Absolute bloody waste of time. And given the recent propensity of the Home Office to hand out passports to all and sundry, not even Bliar now has the front to stand up and still claim that they will enhance security.

And how exactly does me having an ID card stop me blowing something up? Never figured that one out nor, I suspect, has this bunch of twunts we call our government.

Funnily enough my friend, born and raised in Belfast, thinks they would be a good thing. I suspect something in the water there ...

Duncan

Dear Duncan,

I think the relevance of ID cards is more likely to be useful concerning the employment of a legally correct workforce, and the prevention of Benefits Fraud, than stoppong someone committing acts of terrorism.

It may also be useful in the case of an individual needing to demonstrate their age when purchasing age restricted goods, as well as such issues as tightening up on "personation" at elections.

I am sure they have a multitude of simple and valuable uses, propvided the data base is restricted in the way I suggested above for reasons of personal privacy...

Kindest regards from Fredrik

The entire basis of introduction ID cards started from the specious argument that they will enhance security. As far as I know Bliar has not recanted that viewpoint.

For benefit fraud we have NI numbers and various other employment records. I don't see how ID cards help.

For legal employment you can check passports, NI numbers, P45's and/or work permits if in doubt. How will another form of (badly administered) ID help?

How many people have their polling cards nicked/intercepted. Show me some numbers that make this statistically relevent and worth spending billions on alleviating.

And again, billions on stopping some young scrote getting his bands on a bottle of cider? Money well spent? I think not.

So whilst I am sure that there are a "multitude of simple and valuable" uses, please cite one that does not have the appropriate checks already in place that are maladministered, or if not where the benefits outweigh the costs.

Duncan

Dear Duncan,

Just because Blair cannot be straight enough to present his agenda in an honest way, does not diminish the pro-ID card arguement, but what his arguement might allow for is too much information to be held all in one place in the ID card data-base.

I reckon that is why the reasoning of "anti-terror" was brought in by PM Blair, who demonstrates some fairly undemocratic inclinations. In a different circumstance he would have made a splendid member of a totalitarian Gov't, but not one party in Westminster would have followed down that route. I hope Parlaimant wins, and not Blair, on this...

ATB from Fredrik

Sorry Fredrik I was editing my reply above whilst you were posting.

As I say in that post now I do not see any pro-ID card argument that holds water. Pick one of your choice and let's work it through.

Duncan

Frederik
I do not understand your point about elections. I have never taken a polling card to a voting station in my life and never will.

Dear Duncan,

You pick, and dismantle my position if you like!

Kindest regards from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Dear Duncan,

You pick, and dismantle my position if you like!

Kindest regards from Fredrik

I thought I already had. So if that's the end of it from your side ... QED!

Duncan

Dear Duncan,

I am not looking for any bloody noses! You say that systems are in place for all the points I raise that are perfectly adequate. I say that tightening up on Illegal Employement, on Benefit Fraud, and Under-age Drinking [just picking a few examples] would be better managed with ID cards, so you say one thing and I say another, which really does not suggest to me that I am right and you are wrong, or that you are right and I am wrong, so much as the thought that we disagree!

If there were no issue where the current system was capable of being improved IMV, then I would hardly have posted my first answer, for all that!

ATB from Fredrik

I was chatting to a friend today whom I find to be both very informed and highly reliable (usually)and told me that the government is setting up loads of centres to issue ID cards and these centres are already being attacked as 'Interrogation Centres'. To get your ID card you will need to answer up to 250 questions which will result in the Government knowing every address you ever lived at, who you bank with and how many times you have fantasised about Penelope Cruz dipped in chocolate. Chaps, this can not be allowed!

Interrogation Centres

Another step in the total erosion of our civil liberties?

ID cards?

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned one of the most essential features of a democracy - the separation of powers.

What are the checks and balances for an ID Card system? Will it be administered by the Executive (the Crown)? Will it be reviewable by the Judiciary? Will its processes be transparent enough to submit them to judicial review?

quote:

Originally posted by Deane F:
ID cards?

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned one of the most essential features of a democracy - the separation of powers.

What are the checks and balances for an ID Card system? Will it be administered by the Executive (the Crown)? Will it be reviewable by the Judiciary? Will its processes be transparent enough to submit them to judicial review?

Deane,

Best not confuse the UK with a democracy. The way civil liberties are being eroded here it will be like the old East Germany before long. People here are happy to give up civil liberties if it helps the Government fight terrorism which the Government helps to create - thus it can control everything and we will be able to sleep safe in a prison bed of our own making.

Regards,

A

I think they would be a great idea if there was a way of limiting their use to the areas that are being wheeled out in their support...but there isn't. The information will be gathered and eventually sold to marketing companies who will know what we are buying - so we get bombarded with adverts tuned to our individusal spending habits.
On a more sinister note, they remind me of old WWII movies of civilians shuffling around being asked for their papers.
Once done, it can't be undone, and we probably don't have the faintest idea of what the worst threat to us will eventually be. Think of a war situation where the UK was occupied and the database seized. It would be the Holy Grail of weapons against us. Individuals could be tracked anywhere.
I think we have to resist until we have identified all the risks.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
You say that systems are in place for all the points I raise that are perfectly adequate.

No. I make the point that the current systems are possibly adequate but are certainly mismanaged. I see no reason to believe that any new system would be any better managed and therefore be of any use.

Given the reported 100,000 mis-issued passports in the news recently why do you feel such a system would be effective let alone address the issues you point out?

Duncan

ID cards are a good idea - then we'd know who was right and wrong and who to torture.

THINK OF THE SAVINGS IN RED TAPE...

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:

Other existing records [including doctors recoreds] could quite reasonably be kept, as now, separately, so that accessing such information would remain unchanged.

ATB from Fredrik

You think so? The days of your personal buff-coloured envelope locked in your personal doctor's drawer are gone. Your medical records have already been "summarised" onto computer, and are in the process of becoming part of the NHS "Spine". This will allow your records to be accessed from a remote terminal by anyone deemed appropriate by the Government. Your NHS medical records have, in any case, always been the property of the Secretary of State.

Dear Doc,

I have no problem with my NHS records being computerised. I think that sounds like a good idea to me. Fancy if I had a certain allergy to a medicine, and was unconscious in a city 200 miles from home? I would very much hope that my records might be accessable by the medical services treating me, and thus avoid making me worse...

The fact that the only allergy I have is not to any medicine is not the point.

ATB from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by acad tsunami:
ID cards - jolly good idea (if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear)or yet another step towards complete Governmental control of your lives?

The notion that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear is long gone. We now in the UK, probably for the first time, have a state that activley feeds off of the people to support it's self; and it has no compunction in passing legislation that has no objective other than to facilitate this process.

Turnbull's use of the word "Stalinist" was not accidental. He used it in reference to the wannabe PM, but it actually describes the whole attitiude of the current custodians of our country. The division of the Home Office is another step along the path to a total absence of real liberty. Capitalism is a deeply flawed system, but socialism (applied not theoretical) has no redeeming qualities.

To quote Joni "You don't know what you've got til it's gone." As our civil liberties are eroded at an alarming pace, the opportunity to reverse the situation receded at the same place. We already have detention without trial.

There is no valid argument for ID cards, and plenty against.

First there is cost. No major IT-based project has ever been delivered on time or on budget. Most of the systems don't even work effectively.

Secondly, IDcards will do nothing to deter terrorism, fraud They will be easily faked - the hackers and cunterfeiters always find a way to stay ahead of those setting up the systems.

The thrd and most important argument against is a philosophical one. The government is merely a temporary custodian of this country an its citizens, not the owner of it/them. If I am walking down the street going about my lawful business, the state has to right to stop me doing so, or even to question me.

The ability or decision to lead a lawful life and go where I please is down to me, not the government. Do any of you ID card supporters want the prisons full up with people who've done nothing morally or lergally wrong, just because they refuse to carry ID cards around with them to satisfy the whims of snooping officials?

There is no argument. ID cards must be opposed.

K

What would the primary data source for ID cards be?

If I could pass myself off in the early stages of data collection as someone else - by showing a library card and 2 utility bills, say - the subsequent collection of biometric data would cement my false identity. I would actually become my false persona with matching fingerprints and iris pattern etc.

Maybe I should do this as the only way to maintain my private identity!

Fraser

quote:

Originally posted by Fraser Hadden:
What would the primary data source for ID cards be?

If I could pass myself off in the early stages of data collection as someone else - by showing a library card and 2 utility bills, say - the subsequent collection of biometric data would cement my false identity. I would actually become my false persona with matching fingerprints and iris pattern etc.

Maybe I should do this as the only way to maintain my private identity!

Fraser

I am told that up to 250 questions have to be answered many of which are highly intrusive and many proofs must be provided such as proof you have resided at all the addresses you say you have lived at.

How on earth would you be able to prove you lived at an address ten years ago? This is silly!

Fredrik