How much of an upgrade is Active vs Passive?

I have tested various active and passive combos at a slightly lower level in the Naim chain (see my profile). I had the impression that at similar amplification the active systems did things not just a bit better but also 'differently'.

The system I now use seemed to have a more spacious, 'lighfooted' and more delicate sound than the passive 'equivalent'. It was also probably a bit faster, especially at more modest volumes which suit my room size. The passive qualities seemed to be a bit more weight and perhaps slightly richer 'round earth' character. I think some may well have preferred this.

Hope this is of some use, I guess the only test is a dem of course.

Bruce

KC

Ken C and Juan Z are both delighted with their active systems and 15 to 20 years ago, both Naim and Linn were promoting the benefits of going active with their top systems. So there must be some merit in going active. I would urge caution and arrange a good dem, as suggested by Bruce W to make sure you like these merits.

Clearly 2x250 active(or 110/140/150/180) SHOULD sound a lot better than 1x250 passive(or 110/140/etc) otherwise why bother spending £1850 for the second 250 plus the cost of a SNAXO and a Hicap (or supercap!)Based on past dems, I am not convinced this is always the case.

IMHO it is not 'cut and dried' that for the same price an active or passive system is best-you need to listen each time. For example, 2x250s active, cost more than a pair of 135s but I personaly prefer the deeper, richer sound of the 135s, others don't.

EVERYBODY with ears knows that a passive 500 knocks the socks off an active 135 six-pack even though the 500 is less costly. OK EVERYBODY might be an exaggeration, but I bet Paul Stephenson won't challenge the supremacy of the passive 500. At best he will recommend a demo! (I hav'nt heard this dem so I have it on 'earsay )

If you prefer the active sound (demo) I would go active before upgrading your currently very competent source/preamp, assuming you intended to stick at the 250 level for a while. Then get demos before deciding whether the next upgrade would be source/pre/power/speakers.

If you're buying second-hand, of course the demos are off, but I have sometimes bought 2 components (with credit card cash), tried them for a few weeks, then sold the item thats least effective. Equals a good home demo! more or less. Obviously no dealer on standby!

BTW, I see one of you hobbies is flying. What types? I teach, mainly on 152/172 and PA28s and have a share in a PA28R(Arrow). My middle daughter lives in Vernon BC, so I also do quite a bit of flying there on holiday.

Cheers

Don

if CD is your primary source, you will get bigger gains from an XPS than a 2nd 250. A bare CDX was not sufficient in my active system (see profile). I jumped straight to CDSII from this.

Active operation really tightens the sound up, but the XPS will probably do this even more.

Once you've made this step, active would be a valid option for you, as would the CDSII or 52 you mentioned.

I have heard Juan's CDSII/82/2x135-based system, and HiCap/SNAXo/2x250 active was a big upgrade over this. How to know if this is the best way to spend your budget?? Still, it worked well. I've not heard his 52.

It's hard to know which to recommend without knowing which areas you most want to improve.

Active operation can be a real blast, but is likely to disappoint if your source & pre are not 'good enough', whatever that means to you.

I guess you're aware of this, from your question.

Note, if you have leanings towards a CDSII, it has been reported not to respond as well to Mana as the CDX.

Are you buying new, or second hand? If new, make your dealer really earn his cash (or plastic) with home demos of the options.

BTW, an XPS in your system might make it good enough to cope with NBLs, which are a real blast and appear to be driveable with a NAP250. Consider that a later upgrade to these would require junking the SNAXO2-4 for a 3-6 and adding a third amp, or maybe running passive again for a while.

cheers, Martin

I plan to get a CDS II (hurry up, tax rebate time) and when I do I will get Fraim for the CDS II, 82 and maybe SuperCap/XPS and leave the things that seem to work OK on the Mana (LP12/250). However, a friend has offered me an old stylee NAXO2-4 and HiCap and so all I need is another 250 and some cable and I'm good to go active. That's really why I was asking the question as $2000 (s/h 250) isn't huge upgrade money but it is a non-trivial expenditure.

Thanks to everyone for their advice and sharing of experience.

Don: I learned on a C152 (w/40º flap which causes express elevator descents), now I mainly fly PA28-181s. I really liked flying the PA32-300 and would like to buy a share in one. The PA28R kicks ass, doesn't it?
Flying has been a bit sparse recently due to working out of town (Houston and Boise) and the fact that after Sept 11th the FAA closed SFO Class B to VFR flight. It was supposed to open today (Monday Oct 22).
I also have a helicopter licence (R22/R44/206B) but my currency has lapsed since I left LA.

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Originally posted by JohnS:
However, a friend has offered me an old stylee NAXO2-4 and HiCap and so all I need is another 250 and some cable and I'm good to go active. That's really why I was asking the question as $2000 (s/h 250) isn't huge upgrade money but it is a non-trivial expenditure.

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Aha, now we're getting somewhere.

This is a subtly different question, in my opinion. I would suggest we re-phrase it as "if I go active with CDX/XPS & 82/Super will I screw up my system so badly that I'll stop listening to it". OK, a bit extreme, but it's more valid than you might think.

I would recommend heavily against such a system if it did not contain an XPS (been there myself). The active amps just seem to need to be controlled very ruthlessly by all the upstream components. Bare CDX just won't do it.

I've listened to Juan's system which was (then) the same but with CDS-II. On the strength of this I'd be fairly happy to stick my neck out & say that it should work pretty well with CDX/XPS.

I'd expect it to rock big-time. Both CDSII & 52 will add subtlety to the mix, in spades.

The great thing about an active system is that it's a steel fist in a velvet glove. By comparison with the full-monty, everything upgraded system the velvet will be thinner, but active drive will bring out whatever subtlety is there.

cheers, Martin

P.S. is the NAXO configured for the SBL?

As the great JCC said "Too much is not enough, Now let's not be naive."

So, in summary, lots of people like the sound of an active system but the sound has enough of a different character that I should arrange a home demo to see if I like it.

The engineer in me definitely likes the active x-over solution better than the passive one.

Cheers

John

P.S. Yes, apparently the NAXO2-4 is configured for the SBLs.

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Originally posted by JohnS:
So I wondered if going active would give me lots more for not much more (cf $7k for a CDS II or 52).

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Yes, it will.

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So, in summary, lots of people like the sound of an active system but the sound has enough of a different character that I should arrange a home demo to see if I like it.

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No, it's simply better. The issue is that active doesn't work well without sufficient quality in the upstream components.[/QUOTE]

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The engineer in me definitely likes the active x-over solution better than the passive one.

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Hell, me too, and I'm not even an engineer. I was blown away by the improvements I got from going Active (I'm going to start capitalising that word, just because I think it deserves it).

If the price is right, I'd definately go for it. What have you got to lose? If you don't like it you can sell the extra bits for no loss [or bring the other upgrades forward a bit :-o ]. I'd be surprised if it was a dissapointment to you, though.

JFDI!

cheers, Martin

I am still a big believer in source first but this also needs to be balanced with exploiting capability of the current setup. The 500 knocks the active six-pack out of the top-notch position in the Naim line up. I had the privelege of listening myself at Naim Audio and was amazed (actually astonished). The new transistor technology and close attention to external multiple regulated power suppliers creates a very different sound. Some folks prefer the 6-pack. For me this was a better, more detailed and bigger version of the sound that I already have (2x250 bi-amped). The 500 was really different and, in my view, much better. In fact I now listen to my system with critique that I would rather not have. I know that Naim themselves have also have a different view on this since they have developed the new high-powered transistor technology that delivers the PRaT that they were looking for.
In your shoes, I would go for the source first and then give the 500 a try.

In the last few months I have purchased a CDS2, a XPS, a Supercap and a NAC52.

All of these black boxes have brought about a worthwhile benefit and my music is better now than ever before. I am currently wallowing in musical nirvana.

I only have a 250 power amp and I am musing with replacing it with a couple of 135's which could be made active at a later date.

I could go the whole hog and buy a NAP 500. It will probably take a few months to save up the lolly for that, so the quicker 135 route is tempting. I could buy s/h now and flog it off at the appropriate time but it's all hassle.

Or I could slowly build up to to a six pack by buying at various stages over the next few months.

Also you have the racking question, one rack for the two shelves required for the 500 or two shelves for the six pack.

I tend to play my system at 9.00pm position which is not that loud, so is the 500 wasted on me ?

So far I have benefitted from every upgrade but the power amp senario is a lot more complicated.

I am bloody confused as what to do for the best.

Regards

Mick

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Originally posted by NigelP:
I am still a big believer in source first but this also needs to be balanced with exploiting capability of the current setup.

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In your shoes, I would go for the source first and then give the 500 a try.

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For the same (ballpark) budget, he could add a NAP500 to his current setup (82 & CDX) or he could upgrade to CDSII & 52 (and maybe active as well).

Within these budget limitations which would you do?

Maybe he'll be happy to do CD, pre & 500 at the same time, but that's one BIG hit.

A 2nd 250+ps+xo (s/h) would cost less than 1/10th of this amount. Less than a third of the cost of either a new 52 or CDSII.

Should be an excellent upgrade for this price.

cheers, Martin

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Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Or I could slowly build up to to a six pack by buying at various stages over the next few months.

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I thought you were still using SBLs?

cheers, Martin

Nothing is wrong, I am enjoying the new system but I know I can get even better and I want better.

Up to now the upgrade route has been dead easy. The power amp thing is much more complex.

Buying and selling is easy but the person who is buying your kit will want to hear it, so you have to dem it, sell it and then buy the new stuff. Thats the hassle.

Going straight in at 500 level is at least hassle free.

The only thing is that I play music low so is the 500 wasted on me.

Regards

Mick

Nigel, I would love a 500 but they retail at $19,500 here. For that I could have CDS II, NAC 52, Fraim, ARO on the LP12 AND a week in Hawaii. Besides, as Martin said, that's one BIG hit, and I be po'.

I guess I like Martin's advice because it endorses what I want to do anyway

Mick, let us know what you decide re power amp upgrades as I'm sure there are blind alleys at your level of kit. I also listen to music at around 9 o'clock so no doubt will benefit from your experiences.

-John