Goldberg variations.

I was originally very impressed with Gould's Goldbergs (the 81 more so than the 50s), but the better the system one listens on the more intrusive his grunting becomes. I find this all the more interesting given I own a number of Brendel recordings and while I have found his grunting to be an issue in some concerts they seem able not to record it.

What really put me off Gould was his Well Tempered Klavier which I didn't get on with at all, and concluded I didn't like the work - it was only when I heard the recent Barenboim survey that I fell in love with those works.

I keep meaning to pick up another set of Goldbergs on the piano.....

regards, Tam

Oh, come on, both versions by Glenn Gould are well past what would be thought, by any reasonable criterion, to be quite remarkable achievements by a single human being.

But, yes, do get the wonderful remasterings on the "A State of Wonder" edition.

I suspect that not one of us on this Forum comes close to Glenn Gould's genius for re-creation, so we should be slow to criticise.

But it's easy to stand outside the circle and throw stones.

Graham

Graham,

Don't get me wrong, I recognise the achievement of Gould, it's just that in a number of ways his recordings don't quite do it for me. I think Gould is one of those artists whose interpretations polarise and you either absolutely love them or don't get on with them at all well. But they are a crucial landmark in the Bach discography and are well worth listening to.

regards, Tam

I think that Glen Gould plays the variations in a very touching way.
The recording is a disappointment to me.
But it happens with old analogue tapes straight transfered on CD.
When companies sell those CDs they don't mind about quality when they know that a recording from '50 or '60 on vinyl can be far better than the simple transfer on cd.

I don't think I agree with that at all - there are a number of excellent CD transfers of recordings from that vintage and number of companies that make the effort to do those things very well (the Solti ring, in its latest incarnation would be a good example - or just about anything on the Testament label).

regards, Tam

Tam

I don't get on with much of what Gould did, but I find that (most of) what he did with (both sets of) the Goldbergs quite amazing. Could he ever have known, when he went into the studio to re-record his interpretation in 1981 (?), that he'd never make it into a studio again?

I think that you have to set aside all preconceptions as to how Bach should sound and just hear what Gould achieves in terms of sheer pianism.

An effing misguided genius, to my way of hearing.

Gianluigi

The "State of Wonder" are the only set of the Gould Goldbergs worth having.

...................

Of course, chaps, I may just be talking shite. It happens often enough!

Graham

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:
I don't think I agree with that at all - there are a number of excellent CD transfers of recordings from that vintage and number of companies that make the effort to do those things very well (the Solti ring, in its latest incarnation would be a good example - or just about anything on the Testament label).

regards, Tam

Hi Tam.
Of course.
I've listened to some Living Stereo transfer and they are beautiful under any way!
Even some old Deutsche Grammophone are really well recorded!

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
Gianluigi
The "State of Wonder" are the only set of the Gould Goldbergs worth having.

Right then!
I'll get that edition as well.
Thanks a lot!

Still Rosalyn Turecks: Goldberg variations

quote:

Originally posted by jrr:
Still Rosalyn Turecks: Goldberg variations

Just listened to the samples on Amazon. Just bought it. Thanks, jrr.

Regards,

Norman

To wonder whether a decent (allegedly) recording could rescue Bach from the clutches of G Gould, I remain to be convinced!

There was a thread on this called Glenn Gould plays the Goldbergs, or some such, which went on for thirteen pages, and I was the only person putting Bach's case before R de S and pe-zulu joined in. Gould was a great pianist, but appalling Bachian. I cannot posiibly go into this again, but merely refer anyone to the earliier thread, which, at least, convincingly put Bach's case!

Fredrik

PS: I have nothing to add to the old thread, but the interlectually curious will look it out, and those more interested in Gould than Bach will not, I would guess... Gould's version is entertaining, but no one should believe it was Bach's intention that the the music should be thus performed... To enjoy it, as such, is fine, so long as no one is under any illusions as to its value as a Bachian reference.

quote:

Just bought it. Thanks, jrr

What, Angela supplanted? I'll have to hear this one myself Norman.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
To wonder whether a decent (allegedly) recording could rescue Bach from the clutches of G Gould, I remain to be convinced!

Indeed, Fredrick, I was "in the clutches" of GG when I happened upon just that thread, and I am forever grateful that the thread caused me to look farther afield. I do have to say, however, that the reading became fairly tedious after about the first page or two. Still, it was very educational and I would recommend anyone else interested in the Goldbergs to seek it out.

Norman

quote:

Originally posted by bazz:
What, Angela supplanted? I'll have to hear this one myself Norman.

Hi Bazz, long time no see. No, I am not sure that Angela has been supplanted, but even through my computer's speakers listening to a low bit rate stream, the warmth of the '50s recording made me want to explore the performance on the big rig. Myabe I have been listening to too many scratchy LPs from that era lately. I figure that the exploration's entertainment value is worth the 20 buck admission fee. However, if Angela's place in my heart is reoccupied, you will be the first to see it posted here.

Norman

Norman

A digression:

As in the case of Bach's Partita #2 for unaccompanied violin (the Chiaccona, of course), I have come to believe that one cannot own too many versions of the Goldberg Variations. I consider myself blessed to own Nathan Milstein's original DG LP set, not to mention Heifetz' version on LP as well; but when I want to be transported to a dimension of bliss, I always reach for Viktoria Mullova's . Sadly, that CD is out of print. I feel so strongly about her interpretation that I pressed a CDR on Aric, via another thread on this forum, comfortable in the knowledge that I was not depriving the artist of any royalties. I repeat that offer to anyone within eye shot of this posting.

Norman

Norman,

That's a bit naughty but I quite agree about the recording! I bought it when it was first released, and as a young violinist I was left aghast! The opening chords of the chacconne virtually break the wrist, but she makes it sound quite easy! A masterful account of this supreme masterpiece. AND she's cute!

That said, I'm fond of Schumsky's recording on ASV (despite the harsh sound and somewhat dated approach) and I am very much looking forward to hearing this:



EW

Hi EW,

I don't own anything by Kremer or Schumsky, so this is as good a time as any to start. Let me know what you think of the Kremer when you hear it. Getting interested in a couple of threads here lately has been a little hard on the wallet. I have read through the Chiaccona a few times, never within earshot of anyone!

Norman

Personally, I think that Grumiaux and Milstein (his later DG set, metioned by Norman above) will present a mighty impediment for some years to come to any newcomer in the solo violin sonatas and partitas.

Graham

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
That said, I'm fond of Schumsky's recording on ASV (despite the harsh sound and somewhat dated approach) and I am very much looking forward to hearing this:

I've placed an order at ECM for this about 5 minutes ago.
Now i'll start walking around the house waiting....................

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
Personally, I think that Grumiaux and Milstein (his later DG set) will present a mighty impediment for some years to come to any newcomer in the solo violin sonatas and partitas.

No, both are good but they've been surpassed. A lot of thought has gone into style and phrasing in Bach over the past 10 - 15 years; out has gone the somewhat studied, lugubrious/severe approach, and in has come a leaner and meaner style which focuses on the more dance-like qualities in Bach. (A chacconne is a dance movement in triple time, for eg.)

The likes of Viktoria Mullova, Nikolaus Harnoncourt, Gardiner, Angela Hewitt, Paul McCreesh et al are getting us closer than ever to what Bach probably had in mind; he wasn't the stuffed shirt people once thought. Mullova is probably the finest exponent of Bach on the modern violin, although I shall report bach (!) when I've heard Kremer. Technical standards in both execution and scholarship have never been higher.

EW

quote:

Originally posted by Gianluigi Mazzorana:

I've placed an order at ECM for this about 5 minutes ago.
Now i'll start walking around the house waiting....................

Good for you, Gianluigi! Let us know.

Norman

EW

I don't think that Bach was a stuffed shirt, nor do I think that Grumiaux or Milstein make him sound so.

I confess that I haven't heard anything other than snatches of some of the younger players around today in the Bach solo violin repertoire (and, of the names you mention, only Mullova is a solo violinist), but I fear that we are rather in danger of moving to a Bach-lite style these days.

Despite what anyone may say, I don't think that I shall ever know what Bach (or, for that matter, Mozart or Beethoven) "had in mind" as to performances of their music. We live in such different times, with so many different experiences, that it's just impossible to understand what any of these supreme musicians expected. I imagine that Bach would have been astonished (and not always favourably) to hear what Mozart wrote. And I have no doubt that Mozart (who is said to have suffered physical pain on hearing dissonant music) would have been appalled by what Beethoven did in the Eroica, not to mention the late piano sonatas; he would surely have run out of any room in which a string quartet were playing any of the late quartets.

So I don't agree with you basic premise that performers today are closer, in some way, to what Bach thought.

But, there again, I may be just an old fart!

Graham

quote:

Originally posted by Cosmoliu:

quote:

Originally posted by Gianluigi Mazzorana:

I've placed an order at ECM for this about 5 minutes ago.
Now i'll start walking around the house waiting....................

Good for you, Gianluigi! Let us know.

Norman

Hi Norman!
I only hope to get it in few days.
Normally cd from Sweden or England take 3/4 days to get here, but i do remember a cd ordered on Amazon that took 40 (!) days to arrive!
Unbearable!

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
Despite what anyone may say, I don't think that I shall ever know what Bach (or, for that matter, Mozart or Beethoven) "had in mind" as to performances of their music. We live in such different times, with so many different experiences, that it's just impossible to understand what any of these supreme musicians expected.

As Alfred Brendel has said, performers today must resign themselves to the fact that they're playing a sort of transcription; instruments have changed quite fundamentally, and even though we can recreate to some extent the instruments of any period, we cannot know with any certainty what kind of performing practices were prevalent. We don't need to be completely defeatest, however - we can certainly use documentary evidence and the sound qualities of period instruments to tell us what people probably weren't doing in Bach's day, even if not necessarily what they WERE doing...!

Regardless of considerations like phrasing, tempo, vibrato and rubato undsoweiter, it's fair to say that the masterpiece can be interpreted in many different ways without one in particular being right; it has always been the case that performers make the strongest case for their music when they are committed, inspired, and play well. As Schnabel has said, great music is better than it can be played!

So what exactly Bach was up to will remain a mystery, but we should still keep trying to find out!

EW

Ew

Absolutely agreed.

That said, the most radical performances I've ever heard of Beethoven's Eroica were recorded by Erich Kleiber and Otto Klemperer in the 1950s. The "world land speed record attempts" by Norrington, Hogwood et al are like pixies in the shadows of giants.

Graham