Goldberg variations.

No, I must admit I can't get on with PC Beethoven. Gardiner's Missa Solemnis is quite something though - after all, what on earth is a period choir??!

EW

Have you tried the Mackerras Beethoven? (always worth a punt at about £15 for the set)

As to radical 3rds - surely Bernstein's NY account has to be right up there?

regards, Tam

What a splendid discussion above. I tend to keep out of things nowadays, but I would say that the above posts represent a very clear and sane exploration of what is music making, and how does the search for authenticity fit in.

Somehow, when I post on these things, people seem unwilling to join in, which is a shame, or they become entrenched, and call me an elitist or worse.

Nice read, so thanks to EW, Tam, and Graham, from Fredrik

Dear Fredrik,

I have noticed a few less posts lately and I, for one, miss them - even if I didn't always know enough to respond on a particular topic.

regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

I sent you an email! G

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
As Alfred Brendel has said, performers today must resign themselves to the fact that they're playing a sort of transcription; instruments have changed quite fundamentally, and even though we can recreate to some extent the instruments of any period, we cannot know with any certainty what kind of performing practices were prevalent. We don't need to be completely defeatest, however - we can certainly use documentary evidence and the sound qualities of period instruments to tell us what people probably weren't doing in Bach's day, even if not necessarily what they WERE doing...!

Regardless of considerations like phrasing, tempo, vibrato and rubato undsoweiter, it's fair to say that the masterpiece can be interpreted in many different ways without one in particular being right; it has always been the case that performers make the strongest case for their music when they are committed, inspired, and play well. As Schnabel has said, great music is better than it can be played!

So what exactly Bach was up to will remain a mystery, but we should still keep trying to find out!

EW

Even I must agree completely.

But the problem is - in my opinion, that a HIP violinist at the artistic level of e.g. Grumiaux and Milstein not yet has seen the light of the day. This problem does not exist with other instruments.

Fredrik, I always enjoy your posts and what you have to say as you've actually played an instrament. In fact I looked at the end of this post to see what you had to say, so I'm a regular reader. I know so little of the past performers I need help to decide what to get.

A good friend here that I go to the opera with and talk a lot with when we're driving the freeways to a group session was a bassonist, graduated from UCLA and was a producer for Delos for a while, at least till he got a real job. I always like talking to him about music as he knows so much. Opinionated but with good intentions.

my best
glenn

Dear Glenn,

Thanks for your vote of confidence.

One of the problems that goes with the study of a subject is the forming of informed opinion, which is not say it is right opinion, but perhaps an opinion from which soemthing may be learned for all that! I always try to post very much in the 'in my opinion' style, as I realise that many, many people will disagree with what I say. It is only to be taken for what it may be worth to the reader, and not more, by definition.

There are issues which are questions of fact and not judgement or opinion though, and sometimes I guess I am too trenchant in these factual areas!

Sometimes I am bogled by the sticking to wrong old fshioned ideas, long after there are disproved.

All the best from Fredrik

Dear Gianluigi,

I am going to try to persuade you to investigate the idea of the Goldbergs on the harpsichord, mainly because until you have listened to the set that way, you will only have heard a partial view. Bach wrote these for the big two manual harpsichord, which has the possibility of dynamic and tonal variations not achievable on the piano.

The dynamics are created on the harpsichord (with the exception of a tiny dynamic possibilities and basic good tonal qualities given by the touch of the player - the speed of depression of the keys, broadly speeking), firstly by the choice of manual (four foot or eight) and selection from a variety of different stops which may be on one or both manuals, in a similar but much more limited way than with the organ. [Among the lovely sonorities availble is the Lute stop, which you will have to listen out for. It is unmistakable when heard! Walcha uses it on occasion to delightful effect]. And more importantly, by the density of the notes - how many are being played at once and how long they are. Very dense fast writing gets the greatest level of dynamic, and slow sparsely chorded music gets the least. Bach, of course, is such a master that he has totally conceived the musical effects to work both technically and emotionally on the harpsichord, so that a pianist has to work very hard to avoid using false and superfluous expressive devices as his means of bringing out the music. All piano performance are doomed to this, which does not mean that they cannot be satisfying to a high degree, but never so fine as a great rendition on the correct instrument, the two manual harpsichord.

If you fancy a challenge, perhaps you would like to search the Archive here for my thread, 'Bach Not on The Pianoforte,' where I cover, at some length, just why I hold the view expressed above. That first post on the Pianoforte Thread is nothing other than factual, but if you want to reinforce the ideas, there is a splendid chapter in Donnington's 'On The Performance Of Baroque Music' on the issue, which I read only weeks after constructing that post!

One of the greatest performances there is on records was recorded by Helmut Walcha in about 1960 and issued by EMI, and I have refrained from recomending this to you before, because it is not in print. But you may find it on second hand LPs, which will still yield the greatest satisfaction.

Of the modern readings, I think Pierre Hantaii on Opus 111 is still one of the finest contenders, and another set that is well liked critacally, but not so much by me, is the Deutche Harmonia Mundi set played by Gustav Leonhardt. There are many fine harpsichord renditions beside these, but either taking my thoughts, or considering alternatives, I beleive you deprive yourself of a uniquely satisfying presentation of the music if you stick solely to pianistic performances.

All the best from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
All piano performance are doomed to this, which does not mean that they cannot be satisfying to a high degree, but never so fine as a great rendition on the correct instrument, the two manual harpsichord.

I know what you mean, but achieving dynamic effects by playing more notes per unit time spells disater for Bach's complex polyphonic writing. I remember comparing performances of the cromiatc fantasy and fugue and the fantasty and fugue in A minor with harpsicord versions and cringing... at least when the fugues began. I must admit your comments ring true (pardon the pun!) with the chromatic fantsy, which tends to swell as the rhythmic subdivisions increase; there can be little doubt that Bach liked it that way, and pianists tend to counter this effect with careful peddling and finger pressure.

As for the fugues though - I think Bach would have been thrilled to hear his contrapuntal writing played on modern instruments, and would be baffled as to why we insist on trying to recreate the vastly inferior instruments of his day! And this is generally true. If ever Beethoven knew people were going back to performing his piano works on those creaky old forte pianos and hammerklaviers he had to put up with, putting the Steinway and Bechstein aside, he'd have thought you were ripe for the asylum!

EW

Just finished reading through this informative thread. I was intrigued about one thing. I cannot recall anyone recommending the Murray Perahia performance of the Goldbergs on Sony. I have found it to be very engaging indeed.

Footnote: I have not heard Hewitt, Schiff, or Gould do these.

A person whose taste in classical music to be both learned and impeccable also admires Perahia's effort but likes Schiff even more and I intend to seek that out in the near future having been a happy owner of his wonderful recordings of the Well Tempered Clavier.

I also recently purchased Schiffs ECM recording of the first 4 Beethoven Sonanta's and his recording of Beethovens complete music for Piano and Violoncello also on ECM. Both are wonderful.

Sorry, slight digression from the Golbergs but worthy of mention just the same.

Norman

quote:

One of the greatest performances there is on records was recorded by Helmut Walcha in about 1960 and issued by EMI, and I have refrained from recomending this to you before, because it is not in print. But you may find it on second hand LPs, which will still yield the greatest satisfaction.

They do sell a Walcha EMI set (5 CD's including the WTC and the Goldberg) through Amazon.fr for a very good price:

http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004UT8G/qid=11.../402-9132533-5973738

I did order it .

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
All piano performance are doomed to this, which does not mean that they cannot be satisfying to a high degree, but never so fine as a great rendition on the correct instrument, the two manual harpsichord.

EW wrote -

[...].

As for the fugues though - I think Bach would have been thrilled to hear his contrapuntal writing played on modern instruments, and would be baffled as to why we insist on trying to recreate the vastly inferior instruments of his day! And this is generally true. If ever Beethoven knew people were going back to performing his piano works on those creaky old forte pianos and hammerklaviers he had to put up with, putting the Steinway and Bechstein aside, he'd have thought you were ripe for the asylum!

EW

Dear EW,

The case is not as you say. In fact read the Donnington where Bach's possition on choice of keyboaard instruments and methods of composition for the Harpsichord, Clavichord, and Organ are realayed entirely with evidence rather than a speculative opinion such as you have written down. Alternatively you might re-read the first post on the Thread I mentioned above!

As for the Fugues being less well brought out than the Preludes os Fantasias, or Toccatas, as they vary in just as wide a way in their means as the pairing pieces this is a rather simplistic analysis. Bach certainly did not loose the ability to write idiomatically for the harpsichord once he had written the first half of a prelude (or whatever opener he used) and then write piano music in the fugue, unable to sustain the style of music necessary for clear executionon the harpsichord.

I fear you may very well be wrong, dear EW. There is no analogy between Beethoven's Piano and Bach's Harpsichord. The Baroque Instrument was at its developemental and sonorous Zenith (like the Organ) in the early eighteenth century, and would never be bettered, where as the piano of Beethoven was indeed very much work in progress! So the analogy falls at the first fence I am afraid. If your anology were correct, then surely Wendy Carlos, not Helmut Walcha, would be the ideal exponent of the Bach Organ works, as he used an electronic instrument that is 100% clear, and so on, whereas old Organs from Bach's time always loose a some degree of clarity due to the imperfections of the acoustic spaces there are found in.

All the best from Fredrik

Dear Rubio,

Thanks for the link! Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Norman Clature:
Just finished reading through this informative thread. I was intrigued about one thing. I cannot recall anyone recommending the Murray Perahia performance of the Goldbergs on Sony. I have found it to be very engaging indeed.

Norman

Dear Norman,

Until actually it comes up, I tend to avoid mentioning things I found usatisfactory. That is why I did not mention the Perahia set. I had it and gave it away to Oxfam a fortnight later.

In fact if you like the Goldbergs from him, I still have his set of English Suites, which you can have for nothing. I have had them for a couple of years and found them prefereable as a conception to the Goldbergs, but Walcha, on Harpsichord is so musically convincing in them that I shall eventually find another set on the correct instrument from another great player as well.

So if you want them I'll post them to you for nothing.

Fredrik

quote:

Gardiner's Missa Solemnis is quite something though - after all, what on earth is a period choir??!

Perhaps if you took a modern choir and denied them access to today’s medicine and dentistry for a couple of years before the recording?

While I haven't heard the whole of the Goldbergs on harpsichord, I have recently come round to the instrument (there was a rather nice exert played on CD masters last weekend) and can see the case for it.

As far as whether or not Bach would have liked his music being played on instruments that didn't exist when was around, any such speculation must, necessarily, but just that. For what it's worth, as far as organs go, my understanding is that Bach used to like to play on, and experiment with different organs and the other year, when the RAH organ was restored (and some Bach was played on it in the opening Prom) one of the people in charge, when asked what they thought Bach would have felt, they suggested his reaction might have been along the lines of 'what a wonderful machine, I'd love to have play with it'. For what it's worth, the only organ cycle I have is the Hurford (which is on modern instruments) and I like it very much. My next cycle, partly through Fredrik's advocacy, partly because (thankyou Fredrik) I've recently heard is superb Art of Fugue, is likely to be the Walcha cycle on DG.

Rubio - I wish people here wouldn't keep finding ways for me to spend more money

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:

quote:

Originally posted by Norman Clature:
Just finished reading through this informative thread. I was intrigued about one thing. I cannot recall anyone recommending the Murray Perahia performance of the Goldbergs on Sony. I have found it to be very engaging indeed.

Norman

Dear Norman,

Until actually it comes up, I tend to avoid mentioning things I found usatisfactory. That is why I did not mention the Perahia set. I had it and gave it away to Oxfam a fortnight later.

I know there are many who rate Perahia highly, but I'm not one of them (this is partly poisoned by attending an absolutely dreadful concert he played/conducted) and also because I found his raved about Mozart concerti a little disappointing. That said, I haven't heard any of his Bach.

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Bach certainly did not loose the ability to write idiomatically for the harpsichord once he had written the first half of a prelude (or whatever opener he used) and then write piano music in the fugue, unable to sustain the style of music necessary for clear executionon the harpsichord.

True, but Bach didn't really write idiomatically for any instrument did he? Except, perhaps, the human voice. I agree that Beethoven would have seen his own "pianos" as more of a first phase in their development, however.

Bach freely transcribed his works for other instruments - in fact, if memory serves, Die Kunst der Fuge wasn't written for ANY particular instrument! - so perhaps we shouldn't see it as quite so critical. It is generally critical, in that we should choose instruments that provide the performer with the range of colour and dymamics required to voice a work correctly, and, as Brendel has pointed out, produce the sheer volume of sound required by modern concert halls. We shouldn't forget that the acoustic environments in which performances tend to take place has changed considerably since the baroque.

Personally, I find harpsicord "sonority" hard to tollerate, although I love listening to Bach performed on a fine organ in a great cathedral or chappel. The only work of Bach's which I cann't endure on the modern piano is the Italian Concerto, which sounds too leaden.

EW

... sorry for the typos, I'm in a hurry as usual! Cheers, WE

I'd add that a lot depends on the quality of the interpreter. For example, I used not to be able to stand Bach's concerti on anything but a harpsichord (this reinforced be Perahia giving a terrible account of one of them - I forget which) - the piano just sounded wrong. However, as I think I mentioned (either in this thread or another) what I have heard of Hewitt has made me want to investigate her readings further. Put another way, there is no point in authenticity simply for authenticity's sake and there exist both good an bad accounts in both schools.

regards, Tam

Interesting thread as I have and love the Gould (1955) version - a result of the Radio 3 season back in December - and am keen to investigate other interpretations. Looks like I have plenty to go on thanks to you all.

But would it be heresy for me to say that while I like the sound of the harpsichord for a short period, it gets on my tits after a while? Or is that a feature of the performer/particular instrument they were playing on? In particular I'm thinking of Brandenburg Concertos (Brueggen; Kuijkens; Bylsma; Leonhardt - not so bad on here as it's often a bit 'buried' in the rest of the instruments) and Italian concerto, French Overture, Chromatic fantasy and fugue (Rousset).

Comments and flames awaited...

Steve.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bull:
But would it be heresy for me to say that while I like the sound of the harpsichord for a short period, it gets on my tits after a while?

It's a bit monochromatic and therefore grates after a time - especially in close recordings. They add a nice crisp rhythmic texture in baroque ensembles though... if you want to hear them at their limit, hear Trevor Pinnock in the Brandenburg Concertos (Arkiv)... if you MUST play a harpsichord!! Solo, they are OK in small doses, as you say. Two skeletons copulating on a corrugated tin roof and all that!

EW

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bull:

But would it be heresy for me to say that while I like the sound of the harpsichord for a short period, it gets on my tits after a while? Or is that a feature of the performer/particular instrument they were playing on?

Comments and flames awaited...

Steve.

Steve

A very pithy point of view, which corresponds almost exactly with the view expressed by Andras Schiff in his booklet notes that I referred to above. Oddly enough, Schiff didn't use your highly evocative mammary gland turn of phrase - although, if he were reading this, I bet he wishes that he had!

Graham

I don't think I have anything to add to the debate, which will not involve repetition, which is surely superfluous!

On the specific issue of Bach writing idiomayically for the keyboard, he was the greatest organist and harpsichordist of his day, and a more than competent string player. What he wrote for the keyboards and for strings is not easy. His concern was the music. Only in the Art Of Fugue did he write things that are actually inmpossible. I wrote something on this in Tam's What are you lisening to now a few days ago if anyone is interested.

Where Bach is much more difficult, technically, is the parts for Horns and Trumpets, which actually require a technique that is more or less specific to his idiom. Kevj has posted about the terrifying nature of the Horn parts for example. However, with strings and the keyboard repertoire I do think it is especially dangerous to cast the aspersion at Bach indicating that he did not know what he was doing. He did and was very specific about his requirements.

I am not about to deliver a lecture, but merely point out that over the last 150 years an aweful lot of musicological reseach has unearthed just how precise he was in his intentions. [Donnington or Dolmesch will provide the points in digestible form, and a completely exhaustive reading list also]. It is all playable, and even makes sense of the old Baroque style of keyboard fingering, but then that might well be the expectataion when one considers that he titled most of published keyboard works Clavier Ubung. Or as we might say, kerboard studies. Not only is it idiomatic, but also a very good lesson in how to play. The greatest keyboard method of all perhaps.

One real blind spot was his incredibly awkward writing for the lute.

Fredrik