Goldberg variations.

quote:

One real blind spot was his incredibly awkward writing for the lute.

Fredrik

I've always been a tad disappointed with Bach's Lute music - I much prefer Dowland and Vivaldi - can't tell you why in musical terms, just do, that's all. Any recommendations for other lute music Fredrik?

Erik

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Only in the Art Of Fugue did he write things that are actually inmpossible.

The D minor Chacconne for solo violin is impossible as written, although chords we have to arpeggiate (is there such a verb? ) on the modern violin are playable "intact" on a period instrument; how one copes with the rapid detache with a period bow I don't know - I must make a point of listeing to one the growing number of period instrument recordings of the sonatas and partitas and report bach.

I think quite a number of Bach's keyboard works make more sense on the organ than the harpsichord - there are a number of instences in the well-tempered clavier where it would seem likely that Bach had a much warmer and more sustained sound in mind than a harpsichord can produce. (The G minor prelude and fugue from Book II is a good example.)

EW

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Only in the Art Of Fugue did he write things that are actually inmpossible.

The D minor Chacconne for solo violin is impossible as written, although chords we have to arpeggiate (is there such a verb? ) on the modern violin are playable "intact" on a period instrument; how one copes with the rapid detache with a period bow I don't know - I must make a point of listeing to one the growing number of period instrument recordings of the sonatas and partitas and report bach.

I think quite a number of Bach's keyboard works make more sense on the organ than the harpsichord - there are a number of instences in the well-tempered clavier where it would seem likely that Bach had a much warmer and more sustained sound in mind than a harpsichord can produce. (The G minor prelude and fugue from Book II is a good example.)

EW

Dear EW,

This is where I find it hard to debate with you. The impossibility of playing absolutely everything on Bach wrote in the Art Of Fugue on the two manual harpsichord (let alone the piano!), is a fact, but you explained the true situation that Bach was not writing music for which he specified instruments. Should it be performed? I think it should, even if there is requires some editorialising.

Yo say that what he wrote in the Chacconne in D Mionor is impossible is like pointing out that the chords in the 'cello suites are impossible, at least to keep the rhythm, and note length.

If you don't know what arppegiate means, or whether it can be verb, then trying the explain that Baroque music is not literal, is going to be wasted 'as pearls before swine' I am afraid! I am not prepared to waste my time on an arrogant ignoramous.

I discussed this with two other Forum friends last night, and both concluded that you are a strange combination, with yor the absolutely certain of the rightness your own often factually wrong opinion, and also your determination not to learn anything from others who do know. Therefore trying to explain things to you is a waste of time.

As you persist in this even though I have remained polite, always, I can tell you that the Forum will loose someone informed and who cares, and you can use the bandwidth up, and fill it with ill-informed, and occasionally completely inacurate, but pasionated sustained opinion.

Good luck with your ignorance. As A parting shot I suggest once again you read Donnington on the issue of what Bach actually meant when he wrote argpegios, which the player must arpegiate (think about that!). Then join in a debate, where at least you understand that notoaion was and still a conventional short-hand. A comprehension of the music's style will allow the informed listener and more especially player to comprehend what was meant by this short hand. the only way the notes can be played on the Baroque violin as written is using a bow made in the twnieth century, called a Vega bow, if my memory seve me right. It is incorrect playing. Donnington and others have the details, so you can inform yourself.

I have one more thread to post, which Dear EW, I would hope you would respect as my parting shot and keep your ignorance off it! You have the advantage over me in that you clearly believe that twice the number of words is twice as visible. Thus my nuggets of wisdom and truth are lost in a welter of mediocre rubiish from yourself. Repeated ad nauseuam, and repea......................................

Fredrik

Fredrik,

Good grief!

First of all, my comments were comments, not an argument. However, as you will know - you being the fount of all knowledge - the chords with which the Chaconne opens, and the central climactic variation (played as arpeggios) are thus executed because the chords Bach wrote cannot be played with a modern bow. Just a simple point that might enlighten members who haven't seen the score and/or don't play the violin. I happen to know something about this because I have studied the piece in some detail, and I am a violinist.

Although I am well aware of the sense of the word "arpeggiate", I'm not sure it actually ought to exist! I was actually being ironic.

So good luck with your petulant, self-congratulatory onanism, and I hope the pills are working.

EW

I'm in the two manual harpsichord camp based on the evidense of my own ears. Also, I don't think one can use speculation as to what Bach may or may not have preferred to support a tenuous argument.

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:
I don't think one can use speculation

Informed speculation is all we have when there is no direct evidence. Many aspects of musical interpretation come down to instinct and taste... factors which tend to change over time!! You just have to make sense of a piece while it lasts, as Alfred Brendel would say!

It's important to bear in mind that most compositions can be rendered in different ways with equal validity.

EW

In Bachs harpsichord music and in other baroque harpsichord music you sometimes finds passages e.g.in Bach�s Chromatic Fantasy or The first movement of H�ndels First "Great" Harpsichord suite, where arpeggio is prescribed, even if the chords are perfectly playable on harpsichord without arpeggio. The composers use in these cases the arpeggio to intensify the effect of the tense harmonic progression. It seems to me, that the same function of the arpeggio is meant in the arpeggio passages of the Chacone for violin solo by Bach, and for that reason I find the question, whether it can be played in simultaneous four part texture or not, irrelevant. The baroque violin bow was more curved than the modern bow, and it was possible to slack the tension of the hairs to some degree, allowing more full accords to be played, but it is still a matter of passionate dispute, if the radical construction of the Vega bow (or similar bows) has any historical justification at all. You may listen to the recordings of Emil Telmanyi (Testament) or Rudolf G�hler (Arte Nova Classics) to hear a Vega-type bow used in Bachs solo violin music, and you may judge yourself, if this is preferable, if most probably unauthentical. As far as I remember, both these two violinists play the arpeggio passages in the Chacone with arpeggio even they for technical reasons weren�t forced to do so.

Regards

Fredrik

It would be a great shame if you were to absent yourself.

Please reconsider. I was thinking of starting a new thread about "Old Goats In Classical Music", stemming from comments about Previn squiring A-S Mutter on another thread. I wanted to kick off with something that I'd read recently about Kathleen Ferrier leaving EMI after "unwanted advances" from Walter Legge in the back of a taxi. Clearly Ms Blackhead was not so choosy. And I'm sure that you'd have much to contribute to this and otherwise.

Graham

Graham

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
One real blind spot was his incredibly awkward writing for the lute.
Fredrik

Maybe they were meant to be played on the lute-harpsichord the organbuilder Hildebrandt had built for Bach after his own prescription. This could explain the unidiomatical lute writing.

quote:

Originally posted by pe-zulu:
The composers use in these cases the arpeggio to intensify the effect of the tense harmonic progression. It seems to me, that the same function of the arpeggio is meant in the arpeggio passages of the Chacone for violin solo by Bach, and for that reason I find the question, whether it can be played in simultaneous four part texture or not, irrelevant.

Very true. I remember Viktoria Mullova saying that, when she was a young student at the central school in Moscow, they used to teach tripple stopping, by applying massive pressure to the bow, in Bach in particular! (Having tried this, I can tell you it sounds as awful as you'd expect!)

The triads that open the chaconne are best played two and two, and there is a case to be made for finshing with a single stop on the fifth. As for the arpeggios in the central section, I checked my score and Bach did actually indicate an arpeggiated formation for the chords - modern editions aren't quite in the authorial configuration, but sort of. Viktoria Mullova changes from single to multiple stopping as the piece approaches climax, deploying mind-blowing technical prowess, so if you want a masterclass, try to find a copy of her NLA recording of the Partitas!

So indeed there is a case to be made for the arpeggios regardless of the multi-stopping capabilities of the baroque bow. OR the modern bow for that matter!!

EW

Sarcasm and irony are easily misundertood in the printed form, but outright rudeness is the act of someone, who is ignorant at the very least.

But I do find that in life, that these name calling excercises tend to reflect more on the obsessions of the abuser rather than the abused.

Is it a regular habit, or only when you fail to attract someone else to do it for you, Dear EW?

I am off now, and no doubt EW, you will be delighted to hear it. Maybe the emails I have received from friends over this merely indicate that there is the chance of intelligent exchange on matters musical with some members here, rather than nonesense from a rather arrogant little man who seems not happy till he has stated the same undeveloped and ill-informed statement half a dozen times, thus destroying the chance of a civil and enlightening (on all sides I will add) converstaion.

Good luck EW, You will need it in life with an attitude and style like yours. Someone is going to punch you very hard one day, I would not mind betting, and you are going to diserve it.

Sincerely, Fredrik

Fredrik, my old friend, you need help, and I'm not being rude or taking the Michael.

If you read through the above posts, you will note that, following a perfectly amicable and intelligent discussion about the playability of certain of Bach's compositions and related issues, you then suddenly exploded into rage and threw your teddies out of the pram! I think a dummy's been spotted at 40,000 ft!

I pointed out, just as a mere contribution to the discussion - nothing more or less - that some of the chords in the D minor chaconne cannot be played as written with a modern bow - something I've grappled with myself as a violinist. This wasn't contentious, it wasn't an argument, nor was it - believe it or not! - even addressed to you! I was really quite surprised and even a little shocked by your tirade, which apart from showing you to be as emotionally volatile as a pubescent girl, reveals a somewhat pathetically narcissistic trait; you clearly believe yourself to be both vatly superior and surpassingly sage, such that all other forum members should simply absorb your towering wisdom and keep stumm, them of course having no knowledge or experience of their own to contribute, and certainly none that can hold a candle to yours.

I genuinely sorry you're so irked, but you are a very strange and cantankerous little man who needs help.

EW

..sorry about the typos!

Fredrik (and EW)

I'm not even going to pretend to understand the points you are discussing on but please can you just agree to disagree, stay on the forum, and carry on educating the rest of us heathens?

Steve.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bull:
Fredrik (and EW)

I'm not even going to pretend to understand the points you are discussing on but please can you just agree to disagree, stay on the forum, and carry on educating the rest of us heathens?

Steve.

hear, hear.

Ian

Ian, Steve - that's certainly fine by me...!

Fredrik et al

I too find your discussions most interesting (and, as a flautist, understand some of them), so please keep it coming.

Regards, Chris

Dear Ew,

You have my abject apology. I should not have beeen rude.

It is my my deep regret that I have ceratinly caused offense.

I go in peace, hoping you understand a passionate old fool's mistake. George [Fredrik Fiske] Johnson.

"I go in peace"

Why go at all?

Because I care, and thus cannot argue for the work of Bach - I so love it. It injures me to have the idea he was not totally competent aired, at least without justification.

Dear Basil, I hardly expected to answer another post. I have erred, and must refrain. I am a nice person, and this has brought out in me a streak I hardly knew exsited. How can I persue something that makes me nasty? Fredrik.

All is fullfilled, as Bach so beautifully set.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Dear Ew,

You have my abject apology. I should not have beeen rude.

It is my my deep regret that I have ceratinly caused offense.

I go in peace, hoping you understand a passionate old fool's mistake. George [Fredrik Fiske] Johnson.

Fredrik,

Am I the only one who thinks your views are the most erudite and well thought out in this forum? I am sure I am not. I look forward to your next post.

All the best,

Erik

quote:

Dear Basil, I hardly expected to answer another post. I have erred, and must refrain. I am a nice person, and this has brought out in me a streak I hardly knew exsited. How can I persue something that makes me nasty? Fredrik.

All is fullfilled, as Bach so beautifully set.

You are clearly a passionate supporter of J.S Bach. That others do not share your views as to how it should be performed is perfectly normal. Just imagine how dull it would be if we all agreed, all the time?

Please don't let this disagreement with EW be the end of your contribution to this message board.

quote:

Originally posted by Basil:
Please don't let this disagreement with EW be the end of your contribution to this message board.

.. especially since there isn't really all that much disagreement! Just don't bite my head off every time I post something!! After all, my observations re the playability of Bach weren't criticisms, a lot of great music is horribly difficult to play.

Relax dear, it's an Internet discussion forum.

EW

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
I am a nice person,.

Yes.
Keep on sending!
Best from Gianluigi