Beethoven for All - Symphonies 1-9

And why won't you tell?

The fool! Bought all nine Beethoven symphonies for £30 on 24/96 when he could have paid £13.50.

Still seems pretty good value to me.

Actually, seems pretty astounding value when I think about it. I'd pay £30 for London Calling in 24/96. Not sure it'd sound much different though.

It's official - Future has begun. The first thread in which it's mentioned the bit rate of Beethoven Symphonies but not the performers...

M.

Dear Max,

Like me, I doubt you could give a fig whether the recording is made this way or that, so long as the performers are first class and the music making great, and the recording fine enough to convey these aspects!

Sometimes I have to bight my tongue and remember that this is fundamentally a "hifi" forum rather than one where the main interest happens to be music.

Though people protest that it is all about the music, in reality the posts here usually give a different impression, which is all about the sound!

Now I am quite happy to believe that "hifi" is a very nice hobby that is harmless, and good fun, but it is only tangentially related to the appreciation of great music and music making! It is at least as much about "hifi" with considerations of the vital aspects of "bit-rates," analogue versus digital, brightness of treble [notice I said treble, rather than mentioning violin timbre for example] and bass weight, rather than precision of double bass rendition or tuba or organ pedals!

No, dear Max, we are creatures here for a different reason to a great many others!

Best wishes from George

For those of us not intimately knowledgable about the works of Mr B, the availability of 5 hours of his stuff at 2.7 smakeroos an hour, gives rise to some jubilation about the opportunity it presents to become more familar. The who's who of who can play it right and who can't takes second place in these early stages of one's classical appreciation.   And it's quite correct to assume that on a Naim forum there will be quite a few who do get more excited about bit rates than who's bashing the symbols or tickling the ivories.

But don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for those of my peers who do care more for the music than the electronics - without them, there would be no hifi for the rest of us to get hot about...

Talking of which - the  NAC-N 172 XS looks interesting, doesn't it? 

I think the original point is to highlight the price differential!  It could just as easily be a set of Scarlatti sonatas!  Why the enormous difference in price?  Not just that, many recordings are available in hi-def sound on HD Tracks whereas they are not in the UK - why is that?  What reason could a record company have for restricting the release of its music downloads, what does it gain?  The "lower-def" version is usually available in the UK - why do we, yet again, miss out?  If someone from the record companies ever reads these posts, perhaps a reply from the "other side" would be welcome .....

Working on the IT side of a record company for 15 years brought me no closer to understanding what the marketing guys and girls were thinking, than you Chris !!

Dear RJ,

It can make a or break the introduction to a great piece of music, just how well it played.

I know people who had a bad introduction [in sterile, and bland performances,  if in excellent recordings] to great music from the Masters [such as Beethoven, Brahms, Haydn and so forth] and who recoiled from the music for a very long time, and this an immensely sad situration as their initial curiosity about broadening their tastes as beginers was stalled, because the emphasise was on the sound quality and price of the issue rather than the quality of the music making.

So I totally and profoundly disagree with your premise that cheap issues of unknown performers in high quality sound can possibly be considered a sensible introduction to great music.

The solution is to read something like the Penguin Guide, or follow Radio Three's excellent review programmes on Saturday mornings, or even consult a Forum such as this where there are some serious music lovers who do know suitable introductory performances for those dipping their toes in for the first time.

Fortunately many of the most entertaining, inviting and glorious performances on recordings of the music of the Masters are, by now, at ultra budget prices, and in very serviceable recordings.

A question in the Music Room would soon bring a good half dozen sensible recommendations for Beethoven Symphonies, for example.

ATB from George

RJS: Which set of Beethoven symphonies did you buy, and what do you think of them, both as performances and sound?

George makes well some good points.  A good performance in a poor recording is better than a poor performance in a good recording.  However, the optimum is a good performance in good sound!  Good sound certainly enhances the appreciation for a performance - often you can hear individual instruments or sections within the orchestra more clearly, perhaps adding to your knowledge of a work you think you already know well.  On this forum, everyone must of course be interested in the sound quality (otherwise you may as well just listen to MP3s).  The quest for better sound quality, such as 24/96 or 192 is progress and should be embraced for adding to the quality of the listening experience, though it can't make a bad performance good, it can improve our perception of it through better sound quality/clarity etc.  It is of course the yardstick of a good conductor if he can balance the orchestra well so that the listener can hear what he should - Sir Adrian Boult was a true master at this.  Otherwise, we are forced to rely upon the skills, or otherwise, of the recording engineers.

It is the new Beethoven for All Symphonies 1 - 9 Decca release by Barenboim and the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra.

Reason for the enormous difference in price?

The same as why everything else is much cheaper in the US than elsewhere: they refuse to pay more themselves and force higher prices upon others.

Just a case of rolling these big economical muscles.

BTW It is just a temporary offer, regular price $35

Dear Chris,

The school of conducting based on the repertoire system [and understudy] bred conductors like Boult, whose still peerless mastery of balance and musicality was gained over a long "apprenticeship" that allowed for real time to mature and be ready to replace those who had been the teachers in effect!

Boult, Klemperer, Boehm, ... well I could fill a paragraph with master musicians' names ...

Not say that musical performance has gone downhill in many ways, but the great masters of performance are somehow timeless in their importance, and the truth is that some superb [even also from the technical point of view] were managed from about 1930 onwards! The music making is still more significant than any recorings of the music achieved since in so many ways that these great pinacles are still available in wonderful modern transfers and restorations.

Generally to the beginner, I would recommend a great "classic" recording as the first expperience of a great piece of music, such as Klemperer in Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, or Choral Symphony, or Boult in Vaughan Williams Symphonies, to anything that has come since. Of course after curiosity has taken hold these great performances will be augmented with other different and possibly more modern records!

ATB from George

George,

You make some good points. But it is not always as easy as you make out.

As someone who is only now starting to enjoy some classical pieces I recently went to see the LSO's free Trafalgar Square concert of the Rite Of Spring.

Beforehand I looked to buy the piece on CD. The varying reviews, star ratings, pricings etc. were frankly bewildering. And what one person liked, another didn't. And then some criticised recording quality etc.

What did I want? A definitive! Obviously that doesn't exist. And now having listened to one or two examples I can realise why. But it can be a hard road and for a newbie to this genre you do tend to think that if a recording has been issued it cannot be ALL bad.

Perhaps the same way that it's hard at first to believe a conductor can make all that much difference.

The Trafalgar Square concert, BTW, obviously suffered by being outside, having traffic noise, people talking etc. - but was a brave experiment and made me decide to see the LSO again so was very worthwhile. And a good night out.

Dear George

Yes, I echo your sentiments.  There was much more time in the past for conductors to mature before recording, and more rehearsal time.  Modern orchestras are generally more proficient at producing a high standard of playing on fewer rehearsals these days.  Time is money, so concerts are given after just a few quick rehearsals before the jet-setting conductor moves to another continent to conduct another world-class orchestra.  Good rehearsal work usually shows in a performance - witness the work of George Szell (often disliked for his harsh and cruel rehearsal methods).  A much different conductor, the peerless Carlos Kleiber insisted upon many many hours of rehearsal and often produced outstanding results - he was also very well paid for the few concerts he gave (on one occasion getting a new Audi A8 for conducting, I think, the Vienna Phil).  Karl Bohm was also a wonderful conductor. Yes, the VW symphonies conducted by Boult are wonderful.  I don't know the Klemperer Missa Solemnis recording.

Regards, Chris

Give Linn a break.. How many other record companies, let alone hifi companies, have recently made prize winning recordings  of great works like Bachs Mathew Passion, Mozarts Late Symphonies and Requiem and made  studio masters of these great recordings availiable for very little money, not to mention persuading a great company like Universal to make available its phenomenal back catalogue in hires .. Carlos Kleiber, John Coltrane, Joan Sutherland, Colin Davis, Kings College Choir, Benjamin Britten .. truly riches beyond dreams. I'm sure pricing anomalies between different markets aren't their fault. At a time when pretty much everyone else is reducing music to the lowest common mp3 denominator Linn are doing some very fine things indeed.

Dear likesmusic,

I don't need to give Linn a break.

I don't have any particular loyalty to a specific recording compnay.

If a company has recorded a performance that I would like to buy then I do, whether it be EMI, Philips, DG, Decca, RCA, American Columbia [Sony now], or one of the many smaller labels.

I am only interested in the quality of the music, and the quality of the music making. I have found that very few classical recordings made after 1926 are so bad to to spoil the effect. 

To buy any record on the basis of price and [claimed] excellence of recording quality is not a first priority for those who value music and music making of significance and durability. So long as the recording is well [musically] balanced, and reasonably free of the usual problems of recording/replay - such as pitch stability, and reasonably accurate timbres - then the possibility of being entranced in a great musical moment is tremendous!

ATB from George

+1

I have quite a few Linn studio master Classical downloads (96/24 & 192/24) and they are excellent both in terms of performance and audio quality.

I also have quite a few HD Tracks hires downloads and am generally less impressed. I feel the resulting audio is often poorer and while I am not claiming they are dubious remasters ( some have been proven to be just that) I sometimes wonder.

Apart from the odd special offer HD tracks are not really much less expensive than Linn and I know which I like better.

Geoff

Just picked up a copy from HDTracks (I'm in the States). At that price, it's fine if I never listen a second time. Cheaper than movie tickets.

I don't want to comment one way or the other on the performances yet, but halfway in on the second symphony I am very pleased with the 96/24 sound.

George,

Dont you think it is more important to at least experience the music than to not listen unless you can source "superior" performances from almost 100 years ago?

I dont doubt that you have heard, have access to, and prefer these older performances.  But I really dont think you mean that contemporary performances are so deplorable that one might as well not experience it, i.e. "spoil the effect"?  But that is kind of how it reads.

I agree that bit depth and sampling rate do not make up for a poor recording or performance, but I think you would also agree that hearing any performance of a genius's masterpiece is better than not.

I find a common ground in sets like the Bach2000 boxset.  The producers admit they are not the best performances by the best players, but they were concentrating on trying to reproduce the music as closely as they imagine it could have sounded in Bach's time.  This means period instruments, reproductions, etc.

Just a thought,

Cheers George!

Patrick

George,

Dont you think it is more important to at least experience the music than to not listen unless you can source "superior" performances from almost 100 years ago?

...

Dear Patrick,

I do agree that it is always better to have the chance to listen to music rather than miss it!

But the point is that there has never been a wider choice of recordings than now. When we had to wait for LP releases, the range was much narrower.

CD broadened it, and downloads have opened the choice up vastly!

But I agree that a technically perfect [and possibly dull under rehearsed, but technically cleanly played] modern recording would be better than nothing, but the point is that there is not only an immense range of recordings now available, but that these are probably easier than ever to get, from record shops, and online. 

So one is not stuck to find the very most entrancing recordings ever made. 

I do think that the very first recordings of great music that a person gets should be the most inviting, and emotionally involving possible, or else the music may seem dull [because of the performance, and performance can make or break any music] so that the initiated is not put off, but is hooked by the music!

I am always here abouts to make a suitable suggestion or two in the Music Room for initial recommendations in the classical repertoire, and the great thing is that others will chime in with either agreement or an equally valid alternative starting point in selecting the ideal first recordings of this or that!

Best wishes from George

PS: For the initiate music lover, I would recommend listening to a grand radio station such as Radio Three in the UK [and no doubt you can suggest equally fine ones in the USA] as a way of discovering great music making in either live performances, or great ones from the recent and distant past! When one is particularly struck by a performance this way one may seek out the recording itself for further enjoyment!!

Any version of "classical" will do me.

I have previously tried 3 or 4 different versions of a piece by getting all out of the library. I couldn't tell ponderous, from bright or pedestrian etc,  all sounded the same so different versions are obviously wasted on me.

I agree with George,  with classical music the performance is often more important than the quality, and there are some technically superb recordings but the music is soooo dull, almost like  being played by a machine, yet other performances are captivating. 

Also for music lovers who enjoy many genres in addition to classical may I recommend BBC Radio 2 and Radio 6. The former in particular has many themed programmes in the late evening and that's where I discovered BDB (British Dance Band) and American Blue Grass artists. Listening coupled with Shazam can be quite fun.