XS Streamer options - dealer comments.

Just one other thing.

As a new boy to naim, I was quite interested in the NAC-N 172 XS, because it seemed to introduce me to a good set up option path. However, the dealers comments have really turned me off and now I am thinking whats the point of it if if the ND5 + Nait XS is superior in sound?

Probably agree. But I think you have lots of options here.

I have nd5, Supernait, stream from iMac for my music library. I am absolutely over the moon with the sound.

But, with the options above and Userve, I think you don't need a naim streamer front end!? I think you could go

Userve > ndac > Nait xs or

Userve > ndac > Nac 152 > nap 155

If the above is possible, then I think this would produce serious quality sound. There are other forum members more experienced than me with probably better advice.

I suppose its what you want to achieve, box count, upgrade, etc... Options. If you don't want the userver, Then the nd5 is back in the picture but then you need to stream from something holding your music library.

Lots of ways to go here. What would be your initial preference?

Anton

Hi Anton and thanks.

Yes, preferences, well they have changed dramatically since I first decided to digitise my cd collection and go the streaming route to discover new music.

I guess there is one major point to consider and in my favour, I have not yet embarked on ripping my cd collection. Therefore from once thinking the NAS route I am now certain to base my system around a UServe. Also this is because my tech/geek/patience/time levels have a threshold and I have come to terms with this fact and as a trade off I am going to spend the money on a UServe and just rip into wav and try to keep things a simple as possible.

Then my thoughts turned to box count and considered that I would just settle on the UQute and UServe. However, that idea was banished by my local dealer who kindly demoed the NDX - UServe - Nac 152 - Nap 155 through a pair of Audiovector 3i´s, which frankly blew me away. I can't afford the NDX but I have basically fallen for the XS options as above.

However, I am not familiar with using a naimDAC, infact its a new one for me to understand. You are saying that I can ignore the ND5 and just go with the naimDAC? So what are the pros and cons (apart from price, guessing that the DAC is cheaper than the ND5) between the two? Also, I am guessing that you can't stream radio through the DAC so I would have to buy another box, is that correct? Steaming radio would be a major priority as its the main method to discover new music.

Please enlighten me on the DAC.

Once again Anton many thanks.

Hi,

Agree on the userve ndac route, I am sure it is the best in terms of sound quality. With the nd5x you could leave out the unity serve for a nas with a upnp server, or a vortex box that can do the same as the userve, but probably requires a little more computer knowledge. If you do not like a 2 box solution you could try the ns01, this is a version of the hdx, with a DA converter so you can connect it directly to a preamp.

I have the ns01 but connected to the ndac, so I cannot comment on the sound quality of the ns01 alone.

Claus

Ok, with you now.

If radio streaming important, then nd5 required. Its bloody good too but I assume you tried this in the demo. I can't believe the quality of the radio stream 

Forget the ndac for now then.

So, you just need to decide which way to go re amplification. I preferred 1 box but I suppose your dealer is  correct re pre and power. I can imagine this system would sound very impressive.

Anton,

good luck with it. Interested to know what you go for and what you think of the end result

Hi Claus, thanks for that.

As you are probably aware, did not fancy the nas route, due to my lack of ability to keep calm under tech solving conditions. As an architect I can handle physical tech problems but when it comes to `1` and `0` I always feel like I am wasting my time on issues that should be resolved for me.

Its a little like a client commissioning a house and then having to spend a year doing DIY to get it to where he wanted it to be in the first place, lol.

Anyway, with regard to the NS01, very interesting just had a quick look on the Naim site, but I have a radio streaming desire to consider, not sure it deals with that????

Thanks Anton.

Anyone else with any thoughts they would be welcome. 

Cheers.

Internet radio is available in all the servers Userve and the ns0X range so with the userve being decided you have acces to internet radio no matter what you do.

Userve does not have an analogue output so it needs a dac to convert the signal to analogue.

The Naim options are:

nd5x used as a dac.

NDAC wich is a dac without all the streaming parts inside the nd5x and until somebody that has heard both nd5x and ndac disagrees, the ndac is the best in terms of sound quality.

If you want a one box solution one of the servers ns01 ns02 ns03 or hdx.

Finally the Supernait amplifier has it's own dac, so you can get a 2 box solution userve supernait.

 Claus

I'd go for 

Mac Mini + Naim DAC + NAC 152 XS + NAP 155 XS

Reason - much easier to use and better SQ. 

It'll play everything from YouTube, CDs and ripped/downloaded music in up to 24/96 kHz .. you can go 192 if you think it is worth it 

... you'll get perfect rips. Apple remote is superb, and the Naim DAC is better than the NDX by a significant margin let alone the 5 series boxes. 

The serving device is the least important component, the DAC and what comes after is far more important. The Mac Mini is a very low noise/jitter source if you connect it through a Wireworld supernova cable. So I'd always max out the DAC onwards before considering an expensive server. 

The Naim DAC has a buffer so the Mac sends bit perfect data in to it, this is PCM so the original format ALAC, AIFF or You Tube or whatever is irrelevant ... the Naim DAC will play from the buffer and so you'll get just about the best sound possible without jumping to the NDS.  

All the best, Guy 

Hi,Jason. I believe in your initial post you mentioned you you have been saving to "upgrade" your system.

May I ask what's your budget?

KR

Tony

Hi Claus,

Thankyou for enlightening me on these points, so many things I was not aware of.

Between these posts, i had thought about the Supernait as an upgrade possibility over of the NAC 152/ NAP 155 combo and again was not aware that it had its own dac though. 

Well.....I need to go and speak with my dealer again.

Hi Tony,

Yes, well I have not been very strict with myself when it comes to the budget. It has gone up from considering a UQuite + nas to the above options. But I really must stop...stop...stop at option 1 level, as mention in my first post...somebody shoot that monkey

Hi Guy,

Well I have been reading posts with your input and very informative they are too. You are a mac mini man (as a server) and I can understand that.

So, are you saying that the mac mini is the server and you rip directly into it and store the rips on it using I Tunes, or rip on a separate mac using ITunes and just use the mini to serve to the naim DAC? Excuse my ignorance on this matter, but as i pointed out earlier I do fear the potential hassle/problem factor of getting the system to work.

Also, I have not ripped my library yet so I can start from a clean slate, i.e. UServe - wav - done.

Can you please specify the way you have set it up please......it would be a huge help in understanding your perspective.

Chaps, I must retire now as my new for month old daughter will be requireing entertaining very shortly and I will catch up with you in the morning.

Once again, many thanks in advance.

Hi Jason

I ripped most my CDs on a MacBook before I got the Mac Mini using XLD, which is a free program and just about as good as a ripper gets. In fairness the US can rip just as well, but XLD makes it easier to get everything just as you want it. There is no difference in the quality of the rips. 

I could have ripped with the Mac Mini by plugging in an external CD drive from Samsung (avoid Apple one like the plague, the add-on SuperDrive is very poor: Apple know it is too so they really should fix it). My Mac Mini is connected to a Naim DAC/555PS with a Wireworld Supernova 6 optical cable. 

As my Mac Mini is wireless out of the box, it finds my wireless network and so has access to Internet resources.

I store my files in ALAC to save space. It makes no difference if you use ALAC or AIFF because the same data goes in to the Naim DACs buffer, which acts as a virtual transport. 

My iPad also connects to the wireless network ... the Apple Remote App lets me select which songs I want to play.

I use iTunes/Bit Perfect as the player; I have 4000 ripped CDs and everything works very quickly ... all the cover art is hown and all the track details. I also have a VNC app that lets me control the Mac Mini if I don't want to use iTunes ... i.e. play BBC Radio or YouTube.

The Supernova 6 is the best way I have found to connect to the Naim DAC ... being optical there is no electrical noise ... the Mac Mini is very low jitter so no issue there ... and the DAC has a jitter removing buffer in any case.

You could put a screen/TV with the Mac Mini (HDMI) and use a wireless keyboard if you wanted and control everything that way. 

You can add lots of storage by just plugging in external discs ... 16 TB for about 50,000 CDs if you really want using its Thunderbolt interface. A 2TB Firewire drive from Iomega does me because it is very quiet .. my Mac Mini has SSD so it is silent and boots in seconds. 

You can even rip from vinyl to it if you really want to ... 

The key is that the Naim DAC is now the player/DAC and a mighty fine one ... it gets better when you add a PSU, but you don't need to. My view is it sounds as good as any Nsim CDP at any price and the NDS is the only Naim box I've heard that I thought could surpass it. 

The Mac is very easy to update, the Naim boxes are ... well a challenge: I can't update my UQ for example as I'm not prepared to buy a PC, Windows, special adapters, cables and load peculiar drivers ... on the Mac I just select software update and install. 

You can also download music ... though iTunes does not like FLAC or WAV that much, but XLD will convert for you to ALAC with no loss of quality. 

Good luck with your choice

All the best, Guy 

If I were you I would try out the Userve - Superuniti option. Gives you everything you want in 2 boxes with easy ripping, easy setup, no redundancy and will give any of the other options more than a run for their money on sound quality.

JasonF,

I am going to go against most of the posts here; I think that If you can overcome your 'dislike' of PCs and rip your music using a PC or laptop then save to a NAS, you can save yourself the not inconsiderable cost of a UServe...

Why not give it a go and see how you get on before committing to a UServe?  You can download a free trial of DBPoweramp to try and it really is very simple to use; just make sure that you rip to lossless WAV or FLAC.  Saving this rip to a NAS would be as simple as dragging into the folder you have created.  I'm sure a dealer could help if you needed advice.

Contrary to what has been said on this thread, upgrade of an Naim streamer is very simple, with all new ones only needing a mini USB connection as opposed to early versions requiring an RS232 adaptor.

I am certainly not saying that a UServe or Mac mini is not a good option but make sure you have all the correct info to make an informed decision.

SKD

Hi Guy,
does the optical out of your mac mini support sample rates above 96 kHz?
Thanks, mipi

For the people going for Mac or Windows sollutions Jason stated that the Userve is a given, but of course this could change, so that is the reason why I do not suggest a mac/ndac or Winows/ndac sollution. On both the Windows and mac suggestions you need to suggest a internet radio sollution, of course they exist but for us Naim serve users is taken care of by the server.

Jason I do not know if you are interested in the Audiovector speakers but if so consider the Userve Supernait sollution and save up for the speakers or an upgrade to Avantgarde or Arrèté they are even better than the 3 super!

It is always nice to spend other peoples money grin.

Claus

Another vote against the 172 XS (which it seems you have already discounted) but I was at my Naim dealer yesterday, and we were both scratching our head trying to figure out why this piece has no PS upgradability...which if it did would significantly enhance its appeal. Not having it seems so "non-Naim" to me!  He said in all likelihood he will not stock it - only special order if someone wants one.

All we could decide is that they were trying to hit a price point, and the upgrade feature would have put it in territory they did not want...but that is just conjecture on our part.

Jason,

FWIW, here's a quick summary of my thoughts:

- forget the NAC172, it's the worst option out of the three, boxed in with no way to go and sonically below the XS integrated / pre / power combo

- the Nait XS is a beautiful integrated amp, very musical, and if your speakers or the ones you indend to go for long term don't require more power, it could be the only amp you will ever need, especially in a small to medium room.

- the 152/155xs combo could be very apealing, haven't heard it but I am sure it sounds very good and most likely better than the integrated in some ways

- IMO the XS range is a sweet spot within the Naim product line up, a great range and probably offers the best value for money, from here on it's lots more money for smaller incremental gains

- one thing to remember, there is always the next step up but it won't necessarily mean you'll enjoy your music any more than you will with a Nait XS. Personally I have been all the way up to 282/SC/250, yes, more of everything but in the end, not any more enjoyable than my first XS based system.

- I would choose a SuperNait over a SU, if you wanted to go down that route, plenty of good second hand deals around also from Naim dealers. I would only ever buy new, if i were certain that I was going to keep my system for a very long time. Otherwise selling it on because you want to upgrade will see you loose a lot of money. Chances are you will upgrade, should you continue reading the forum after you have bought your gear. Sorry, it's the truth.

- Regarding your choice of source, the ND5XS is a lovely piece of kit, very musical, could be all you ever wanted, if you didn't listen to gear further up the chain. It came out on top when compared to the first gen NDX with the previous streaming board in a well known German hifi review, some statement.

- yes the Naim DAC is better and excellent value for money, again, plenty of good second hand deals around

- the real question is what type of user interface are you happy to use? There are plenty of options, macbook or Mac Mini are one. iTunes is easy to use, has it's advantages and ripping CDs is a piece of cake, no issues there really. If you wanted to go down the Mac route, rip to AIFF.

- Apple remote on iPad is a neat control point but a bit crude and overall probably not as nice as nStream, especially with the new and upcoming features, loved the interactive album art on nStream, still no fast forewarding, a pain in the ass, if you are listening to a long track, mix or podcast, need to listen from the beginning to the end. Naim will fix it long term though

- the US is an expensive piece of kit IMHO for what it does. Ripping is not a big deal and you'll get the hang of it fairly quickly, plenty of good advice via the search engine. I use a Macbook pro for ripping, works fine.

- differences in sound quality may exists, with some reporting that WAV sounds better to their ears, others can't hear a differnce. I couldn't either. But that was into the nDAC, so not the same as serving that file to a Naim streamer. In any case, I would argue it's 2% of the overall jigsaw or negligible in the grand scheme of things

- my choice would be an ND5XS, if you decided to go for the XS range, with an external NAS. AssetNas is a great solution, transcodes any format to WAV on the fly, if this is important to you. Asset UPnP is probably the best non Naim UPnP server out there and works a treat with Naim streamers. Check out RipNAS, if you don't want to do your own ripping, it uses dbpoweramp automated ripping, similar to the US, CD in, CD out

- I would go for an AssetNas though as you can do the ripping yourself, either with dppoweramp on a PC or XLD on a Mac

- US provides Internet radio and nServe is still the better UI when compared to nStream. Combine US and ND5XS and there's redundancy there.

- if you really wanted to go for a US, and there are some valid arguments for it, my choice would be to parner it with the Naim DAC though, connected via Naim DC1 BNC coax cable. It will provide better SQ and let you take full advantage of nServe functionality

- one thing to remember, Naim rips are propriotary and don't allow for easy use in other devises such as iPods, etc. Not sure how easy it is to transcode into mp3 and keep the metadata.

- all considered the ND5 is a lovely unit and a great fit with any of the XS amps, you could always ad a Naim DAC at a later stage, if you wanted to improve SQ even further. BUT, ND5XS into nDAC sounds no better than a Mac Mini into nDAC, so it would be a costly bit feeder. You'd still have nStream as a UI though - nice to use on on iPad

- whatever your choices, don't underestimate the importance of system balance. A balanced XS system can easily sound better, meaning more musical, than a mullet system, involving better amplification. Better to invest in improving your source first.

Lot's of choice, I know, but all part of the fun

Dan

The preloved market for Naim gear is very different in Scandinavia than in the UK, sad but a fact of life over here. In  my 15 year with Naim gear I have only managed to get one used item a Hicap.

Phil has on several ocation mentioned that the 1.7 firmware for the servers will include an option to perform an automatic convertion of the ripped wave file into mp3. If it can be done on existing files on the servers we do not know. When will it be available, when it is ready of course!

Claus

The UnitiServe includes internet radio, if that's what you mean by radio streaming.  Internet radio is NOT just on the streaming products.

I use uServe -> NaimDAC.  I am confident that the dac in the NaimDAC is superior to that in the ND5XS.  If cost is a concern at all, the NaimDAC is just slightly more expensive than the ND5XS, and I think the tradeoff is much better dac, but a loss of the music player functionality which you do not need if you get the uServe.  The uServe is fully capable of serving as a player, using the nServe iPod / iPad app, connected directly to the NaimDAC with a DC1 cable.

But if you want to go with the ND5XS, I would skip the uServe and just get a NAS and use your computer to rip cd's to the NAS. 

No Mipi, it doesn't ... 24/96 is the highest, but I can't tell the difference between different sample rates, but if you can and want to go to 192 then you need a hiFace 2 or equivalent. 

All the best, Guy

Chaps, what can I say...I think you have covered all the queries and issues I am faced with.

@Guy, many thanks for your explanation on the mac route.

I do completely understand the mac route and I would certainly go for that over a nas, but as you can see I am not too hot on the tech side, but I am coming round to the Naim DAC rather than the streamer. 

Interestingly, I am a mac man and I own a macbook pro + time capsule and my wife uses ITunes infrequently, but she only uses it to populate her iPod, so I am a prime candidate for this route. I have purposely stayed away from ITunes and have continued to buy CD´s preferring to listen to music on my modest HiFi system, that and the fact that I work on a computer all day for my job and by the time I get home I am sick to the teeth of them, and frankly 7.5 hours of staring into a screen is more than enough. I noticed that you also replied to Russ´s post, who in many respect seems to be in a similar position as I and it seems there may be lots of peripherals and additional software to deal with. I just know that I will have to attend to general maintenance and problem solving over a period of time and actually the long term cost facter of constant upkeep may be a fals economy in relation to the UServe when one adds in Naim support and updates etc. I really do respect the DIY route, but there usually is a trade off and that is....time. I no longer have the inclination, patience or time. I could be wrong, but I feel the more computer stuff one needs to access just to play music....the further away from the music one is.

I actually see Naim and Apple as two apples from the same cart, as they have a similar attitude and philosophy on how they approach their respective disciplines. Design, build quality and making sure what you pay for works out of the box first time (almost), you pay a little more for that. I am happy to accept this price cost for ease of use.

Additionaly, I am very keen, as a general approach, not to turn my house into another office environment and have always tried to keep things as simple as humanly possible both physically and in terms of software, this maybe too idealist as I have yet to see how all this adventure pans out.   

@Dan,  well covered indeed and very concise.

- US provides Internet radio and nServe is still the better UI when compared to nStream. Combine US and ND5XS and there's redundancy there.

- if you really wanted to go for a US, and there are some valid arguments for it, my choice would be to parner it with the Naim DAC though, connected via Naim DC1 BNC coax cable. It will provide better SQ and let you take full advantage of nServe functionality.

This sounds like a very good route for me, I was also not aware of the UI of the nServe being better than the nStream or that the UServe could stream radio, until Clause mentioned that in an earlier post. In many ways that increases the value of the product for me even further.

So basically what I am thinking is: UServe + Naim Dac + NAC 152 XS + NAP 155 XS

Thanks again all, you have been very helpful.

Cheers,

Jason.

Jason, although I am not "in the head" of the Naim designers, I feel that this is precisely why they offer the UnitiServe -- for people who do not want to deal with computers and their home network to play hard-disk based music files.  I will say the same thing to you I said it a reply to Russ; do not feel bad about that choice.  It is your conscious decision to spend a little more money to keep the computers out of your parlor; it is a reasonable decision, for sure.  (Indeed, it is why my hi fi has as its source uServe -> NaimDAC.)

The system you have proposed should be quite enjoyable.  But at the risk of introducing more chaos, I can tell you that adding the XPS2 to the NaimDAC is quite transformational!