Latest nStream update

Hi Phil,

Of course the "update process is appropriate for the design of the product". A political answer if I ever heard one.

However the much maligned BTHome Hub is able to update itself overnight without any intervention from the user and it comes free with your Broadband connection.

BUT an expensive piece of Naim kit can't. You need to use Windows and you need to find/buy an extra lead that is in your own words "essential" to update it. This lead is very cheap to buy and Naim don't even put one in the box.

Could it be that the end user was not thought about much in this process? The music they produce may be good but it seems that the warm glow of ownership is dimmed for a lot of people every time they have to do an update.

Hi Tog,

Still not clear I'm afraid ... maybe I've missed something earlier but is AE "Airport Extreme" or "Airport Express"? And are they being used as routers or bridges?

(Please forgive me for being simplistic here as I know you are pretty switched on.)

You need a router (Airport Extreme or modern Airport Express) between your network and your SuperHub.

I know that the older Airport Expresses can also be used as a router of sorts with the Ethernet port connected to your SuperHub and then bridging out WiFi from there but my limited experience of using those devices in that configuration tends to suggest that they are better kept as "clent end" devices.

If you're not running your SuperHub in CableModem mode then you need to make sure that your router inside your SuperHub is running a different subnet to your router so that routing out to the Internet still works. The SuperHub runs 192.168.0.x / 255.255.255.0 (IIRC) so you'd need to make sure that your router inside the SuperHub is running on - say - the 192.168.1.x / 255.255.255.0 range.

If you're running your SuperHub in cablemodem mode then it just passes the traffic straight through and so you don't need to worry about what IP range your inside router is on.

Certainly whilst debugging systems I'd be looking to simplify as much as possible - so at the risk of teaching Grandma to suck eggs if I were attacking your system I'd be looking to get everything possible hard wired to the main router and use as few wireless hops as possible and see where we're at stability wise.

I suspect that you're getting more "streamer not responding" messages now because now nStream is the control point (and the control point is now on the wireless side) whereas before the Uniti was the control point and that was wired - if you drop back to "UPnP Compatability Mode" then does the system get more reliable?

Cheers

Phil

Hi Spartacus,

Not really sure why my answer is classed as "political" - I have explained at length on several occasions why the update process is the way that it is and if you feel that this is incorrect then that is your prerogative however that does not change the fact that the update process is appropriate for the hardware.

...and I can generally tell when it does as my inbox gets hit with a flurry of "my system used to work but now it doesn't" emails.

That aside, once again, the hardware in the BT HomeHub is different to that in the Uniti and ND series products so the comparison doesn't really stand up. 

The lead that you require depends upon your computer - if you have an older unit (Uniti / UnitiQute / NDX) and you have a serial port then you require a serial cable, if you have no serial port then you require a USB to RS232 cable.

I believe that we have tried to make the update process as accessible to the end user as we can - perhaps we should simply not have released a user installable update and made it a dealer only update?

I understand that you feel that the unit should simply update over the web but - as I have said a number of times - it is physically not possible to update the Uniti or ND series products across the internet.

Best Regards

Phil

I think you need a holiday Phil

Hi Phil

Units are Airport Extremes - AE1 provides main router DCHP duties to hardwired switch, MacMini (Plex Server - attached to TV) and via switch to hardwired Server  / Uniti. AE2 merely extends the wireless network which in this house will soon require another - probably new Airport Express.

The wireless devices are multiple MacBooks, one IMac, Ipads and iPhones.

Old Victorian pile is being restored at present so proper cabling will be put in and servers, etc can be  positioned well out of Mrs Tog's sight in basement rooms.

Where do I find the UPnP compatibility button?

Tog

Hi Tog,

The UPNP compatibility button is in NStream, hit the 'SetUp' cog wheel on the bottom right and you find it in the Setup options.

Chris

Ahha! OK - I thought that you were using the airports to provide a wireless hop on your network...

Good man!!!  

(B.T.W. If you're building your own servers - and I know that you like your Vortexbox - then xcase.co.uk do a rather inexpensive 4U 24 bay case ... £350 plus the dreaded.)

It's in the "UPnP Settings" section of the setup page on n-Stream...

Cheers

Phil

Er not on mine.... Ap Version 3.1

Tog

Tasty cases mmmmm

Latest version should be 3.1.5522 but that option should be on 3.1 IIRC ... you do need to be connected to a streamer running latest code for it to show.

Ahhh - I see you haven't updated yours - then in that case your n-Stream won't be running as a control point either ... so in that case there should be no reason (related to n-Stream) why you're getting more "Streamer not responding" messages. :-(

Phil

Enough said... Look at the length of this thread and others on updating Naim streaming kit. I was thinking of taking a second look at the Naim Streaming products but I'll stick to my Mac Mini for now and when the time comes I'll be looking at the competition.

Decided to do the upgrade this weekend with a little trepidation give the feedback on the forum. I don't own a non Mac laptop so needed to move my NDX up to the study in order to do the update from my desktop PC.

All in all I found the process far easier than originally expected, largely due to the very clear step by step instructions provided. The link to example cables meant I knew exactly what to buy and with a few clicks on Amazon that barely added to the process. The screen shots also meant there was no confusion on what I was doing and I had the whole thing done and back up and running in about half and hour.

I agree that it's not as simple as some of the plug and play we are used to these days but compared to the past hours spent trying to get things like printers up and running or even enough memory freed up to get a program to run it was not particularly hard or onerous at all.

Going forwards I won't have any concerns with applying further updates to my NDX and the ability to now queue songs through the ipad was more than worth the effort to make the change. 

Hi

A few days ago I carried out the 3.16 update on my NDX. This was done using a serial cable from computer to NDX. The download installed exactly as shown in the Naim instructions. The only problem I have is with the change in the sound performance. Yes there is more clarity and detail but this seems to have made my system sound much brighter. It is as though the sound has risen an octave or two. The slight bit of warmth that it originally had has gone completely. Has anyone else had this problem My system is Unitiserve/NDX/Nait XS/Spendor s6e. I assume I am right in thinking that I cannot reverse the software installation.

I find this a bit strange as an attitude. Yes, the update process could be easier, but it isn't that big a deal to do this about once a year, is it? And surely it's a very minor negative outweighed by some of the significant advantages of the Naim products we're considering. Surely??

BTW, Phil, did you get your TiVo sorted?
Paul 

That seem to be the case. The sticky about this subject says:

Streaming product updaters must not be used to revert or downgrade a device to an earlier version as this will make your product inoperable.

see full post

User experience is a valid product selection criteria and I have to say that Naim has not chosen this as one of their priorities which is fine as long as they have enough loyal IT savvy customers.

I fully understand Naim's technical issue now - I think the main point about the upgrade process is the degree to which it creates opportunities for something to go wrong. The process may be relatively straightforward at the factory but in the domestic consumer world the margin for error is small and the likelihood that something will go wrong is very high.

In short the process is far from "idiot proof"

Tog

Found the option thanks - Let's see this weekend if my Tivo's full of duplicated rubbish.

Phil

Hi Tog,

Not sure how you come to this conclusion - the only thing that as a user you can "do wrong" is to chose an incorrect COM port (in which case the updater won't run) - apart from that even if you deliberately pull comms during the update process the updater cannot leave a unit in a bricked or unrecoverable state as it never touches the baseline bootloader code on the device.

So how do you perceive that "the likelihood that something will go wrong is very high" and "the process is far from "idiot proof""?

Phil

Musica i updated my ND5 and first impressions are the same. Will get time to listen properly at the weekend. Really hope it hasnt ruined it as ive never been a fan of the naim in your face sound, probably get ripped apart for saying that, which is why i spent a long weekend with the unit before buying. Hopefully it was one of those evenings and not an issue with the upgrade.

Hi Musica,

I managed to spend some time listening last night and it was very noticable that all the warmth had gone out of my system. So much so that I swapped back from the upsampling output from my NDX to native.  I thought it must just be me. I also thought that loosing 2 stone might have cleared some fat from my ear canals!

It is slightly better in native mode but it is still very much brighter than it was before.

Regards

Huw 

Phil,

I'm not sure I'd agree with Tog about "very high" but the upgrade process does ask a bit more of the home network (and the user/"network engineer") than some most other devices expect. If you have a fully wired network (or can temporarily plug your PC into the switch the player uses - while still being able to connect the USB wire) then its all pretty simple yes.  I'm not sure that that's going to be what many people actually have...  My wild guess is that most consumers are pushed towards  wireless networks.....and - as you've well described relying on Not SuperHubs or  BT trashhub isn't great.  [This last update was made harder for me by the BT Home hub not wanting to give my PC an address.....nothing to do with Naim of course....but I may have cursed a few times.....]

I don't mind the temporary changes I have to make to do the updates - its not very often, and the functionality (and sound) are making big steps.  But (since I work in software and system design/architecture) I know which problems are mine, and which belong to Naim, but compared to the apparent slickness that most consumer devices present ("it just happens") it will surely look more complicated?

Personally, I'm prepared to jump through quite a few more hoops to get the sound (and reliability) I now have with my system....so I'm quite a happy bunny!

Phil

The more you feed the more ferocious the appetites become

Sent you an email

Simon

You pay your money you make your choice. I own an all Naim system which includes 282, 250.2, CDX, Naim DAC, HiCap and XPS2, Allae Speakers. The only non Naim items are my turntable, equipment rack and streaming option. I've listened to all of the Naim streaming options, played with the control point, researched how they are managed, compared them to at other manufacturers. In the end I decided to "roll my own".

I personally have found no significant advantage in owning a Naim streaming product.

Well it had all been working a treat, playlists and all. I switched everything off and went for a few days break, then after switching everything back on, I'm now persistently get the server not responding, which is what happened when I first updated everything but that time rebooting the NAS seemed to fix it.

I'm using Twonky on a Readynas and this connects wirelessly to my unitiqute using an airport extreme. I'm trying to use the latest n stream on an iPad.

The frustrating thing is that before I switched everything off, it worked a treat. I've tried rebooting everything but this time it doesn't seem to make much difference.

My tip, if it works, leave everything switched on.