Latest nStream update

Steven, if it's any help, I have just found doing a power off/on reset on my  iPad v1 restores normal service for a while. I think the bug is with Apple IOS or Nstream network buffers/handles.

Regards

Simon

Tried that Simon but no luck.

I suppose i've lived without playlists for over a year, so bit longer will be ok until hopefully an n stream update comes out.

Just a thought do you have an iPhone/iPod with Nstream as well as the iPad? I have found the two interfere with each other with Nstream  3.1 that I don't remember happening before to the same extent. I have had to now ensure my iPhone has it's nstream switched off. If  it's on, even in background, my iPad keeps saying 'Server unavailable'

Has anyone tried sniffing the network with wireshark or similar to see what's going on when the 'server not responding' message is displayed? Might provide Naim with some useful diagnostic info to aid resolution. Phil mentioned in an earlier post somewhere that IGMP is not handled well on some consumer routers, I wonder if the change to make nStream the control point has complicated the process of joining multicast groups and packets are not being forwarded correctly?

Isn't that always the truth?

Dave, I really need to get debug out of the iPad to see what is going on and I don't have the facilities. IGMP comes in various versions, but to be honest most people will not be usIngi multicast across subnets for their home networks, so joining streams is not really that key. However it's the switches that are more key. Advanced switches snoop IGMP to determine which ports are associated with a particular multicast stream. However this all too much for cheap consumer switches and they are usually programmed to blindly broadcast multicast on all ports irrespective of stream group which for low level multicast traffic is harmless and fine.

So if you use switch to connect upnp server, ndx, and multicast wireless enabled WAP such as Apple airportexpress you should be fine.

This has been the case for me with Nstream 3.0 and firmware 3.15 beta which supported playlists.

I have sent Phil an email this evening with my findings, and in short I think there is a corruption in playlist media items in certain scenarios which breaks iOS network buffers/handles on the Apple device. I have no way of debugging Nstream to see if this internal corruption is happening on Nstream 3.1.

My Nstream is stable until I start playing with playlists and queuing tracks, and that drives timeout responses on my iPad and slow behaviour. This is cleared with a long elapsed time or resetting my iPad.

If your network doesn't support multicast then discovery and status update messages would fail all the time. This can happen on poor networks and indeed I have 'sharked that behaviour in the past.

Simon

Hi

Posted on Monday to say my attempt at loading the new firmware had failed and lots of kind people replied with good advice, including Phil. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to respond as I have been busy with work.

Well tonight after re-reading the instructions, I realised I hadn't downloaded the driver Naim recommended and now, after doing so and completing the update successfully, can sleep tight in the knowledge that my NDX is at the latest spec.

So a belated thank you to all who gave their time to offer  advice.

Atb 

Ray

Hello Simon

I do have an iphone with n stream, which never worked with playlists, possibly because it was conflicting with my then working ipad.

I have tried switching it off though but still no luck. Could other upnp apps such as plug player make a difference? Although i have tried switching them off as well but didn't seem to help.

Strange thing is that my Nas has two upnp servers, the built in ReadyDLNA and my preferred twonky. ReadyDLNA works fine, but doesn't support the album artist tag which I use. I wonder if running two servers is a problem, although it never has been in the past.

I'd agree it's a political answer. I cannot imagine anyone from Naim will say: "Er, maybe we got it a bit wrong."

Rather like DAB radio in the UK. Standard was set early and has now been surpassed. But it's too late to go back.

I'd only say that there are a number of people who have posted here who will look elsewhere for streaming products because of the update process.

As a growing number of people move to tablet-based home internet connection Naim will have no choice but to redesign their products to allow web-based updates. The architecture might not allow it at the moment but they must know it will actually have to happen in the future.

It's a bit like finally abandoning DIN-only connections except accelerated x10 in timescale.

It's a moot point: But the number of people owning a Windows-based PC or laptop at home in 10 years time will probably be well below that who own devices running on other platforms.

Where does that leave the present range of Naim streamers?

Just a thought. 

I'll worry about that in 10 years... In the meantime whilst the update process may seem a bit clunky compared to some consumer kit, I'd trade that any day for Naim's sound quality. At least they are allowing end user updates, it could have been a dealer only process which would have been a right royal PITA.

I agree that having to use windows is a pain. I now use a mac and have done so for a few years. My pc is therefore now quite old and somewhat out of date.

The worst part of the upgrade is when I switch on th pc and it takes ages to boot up and install updates etc.

When I did the first update last year it was a challenge to get the right usb to serial adapter, but now that I have it the process is a pain, but since updates are so infequent I don't really mind, but it would be so much easier If i could use my mac.

Naim seem to use some multi platform software for their music downloads, so someone in the company must be able to to program mac compatible software.

Fair point there.

But I'd take a bet you might not agree if you couldn't update at home. (Which you obviously can)

Sorry....it is a dealer-only process for me. Total cost £156.

Not sure what "consumer kit" means. Sort of had a feeling most products were meant for consumers. 

Steven

I think if you review Phil's posts over the past few months he basically says: No. Because the software architecture on the equipment does not allow it.

I would bet that if they were asked, in private, would you design this differently today they would say: "Yes, of course we would."

But they are too far down the line to make a change now. Although, behind the scenes, they really must be working on something. Unless they are blindly stupid.

I'd refer again to DIN connections. Took awhile to move away. But Naim had to do it to increase sales. The update process is the same. Except the development cycle will have to be faster.

I defy anyone to say this will not happen or is not in the best interests of Naim as a company.

I'm not really that interested in using a Mac to do upgrades if it means, I've got to hunt for peculiar cables and dismantle my system. My system is there to play music not to present an intellectual challenge on how to make it work. Is the NDS, NDX et al only intended for computer engineers? 

M Apple TV just plugged in and works and software upgrades are trivial ... that is what I expect on a modern consumer product. 

For me the NDS is Naim's most disappointing product ... so near and yet so far. I don't think it the same as DIN plugs as once fitted that's it (I think it is more on a par with humming transformers) ... the software upgrade process is something else. I wish they would do something about improving the software upgrade, but sadly I've concluded it won't happen in my lifetime. 

Hi Guy -

It is only early NDX's like mine that need a USB to RS-232 serial adapter. Later NDX's and all of the NDS's need only a USB cable. Nothing peculiar.

The firmware update process is 1) download and launch the installer, 2) select the serial port, and 3) press go.  It is not complex at all.  Perhaps not as elegant or modern as it could be, but at least the process is restartable (i.e., owners don't have to worry about "bricking" their network players).

It remains to be seen, but my prediction is that once the MacOS port of the installer is complete, there will be very many Mac owners who will reject the NDS because of a once every six months or so firmware update process.

Good luck with your KDS demo.

Hook

Interesting read.. My take in on.. One of the reason I chose Naim was because of its SQ rather than its pandering to the 'lefstyle' brigade. Almost it's quirkiness in places added to is appeal.

Now that is no excuse for poor product design. However the current upgrade process could be completely overhauled to internet download or USB stick. But that would require a new architecture for many devices. That is a lot of product development £ and knowing the sensitive balances within Naim products a possibility of interfering with SQ.

I would prefer Naim focus their development funds on SQ first, and let some of the more esoteric usability issues catch up in the fullness of time.

Perhaps the NDX2 and NDS2 will have a different architecture in the future but I am enjoying mine now, and I am glad I can do the 20 min update process every 12 months or so with a USB/RS232 lead rather than take it to a dealer or back to Naim.. Which of course was the old way of doing things.

But of course everyone has their own priority and focus but that's mine.

I think it should be Naim's priority as its business rivals can produce gear that has both aspects: convenience and sound quality.

Tog

+1 on that Tog. Others manufacturers have been able to do it.

Re "bricking" of network players. I've read on this Forum of exactly that happening and people wanting to throw them out of the nearest window.

When the Mac OS port of the installer is complete I'll read the forum to see how it sits with the current set of owners and I'll also visit my dealer and check it out.

Hi Spartacus -

Can you please point me to the thread where you read that this happened?  I've read lots of posts where owners have run into "server not responding" and other frustrating operational issues following an upgrade.  Sometimes these are the result of software bugs, but more often these have turned out to be environmental issues.  But I do not ever recall reading about a network player becoming bricked due to the firmware update process.

Just to be clear, by "bricked" I am referring to today's common use of the term to describe a device that is damaged, and can not function in any capacity (until it has been returned to a dealer or manufacturer and repaired).  So long as the firmware update process can be restarted (after, say, a power outage or a communications cable becoming dislodged), then the device can be recovered, and is not actually "bricked".

I try and keep up with the forum, but could have easily missed something.  I did also try searching the archives, but came up empty.  So thanks in advance for pointing me to the thread where you read that the network player firmware update process could not be restarted. 

ATB.

Hook

Ok Hook, I give in. The phrase "bricked" has not been mentioned in this context. It seems that people who have had trouble with the updates have been able to restart it and the unit did not become a "House brick" or any other type of rustic door stop.

Wasn't trying to make it a contest Spartacus -- no giving in necessary! Besides, I try very hard to avoid picking fights with gladiators!  

I was just thinking back to the conversation with Phil Harris where he talked about their design goal for firmware updates.  They wanted to avoid the return-to-dealer model, so they looked at different ways of accomplishing this. In Naim's view, preventing bricking was of utmost importance.  Even though it is slightly cumbersome, at least the current process can be restarted after an interruption and, apparently, the same could not be said of the other (including network-based) methods they considered.

My guess is that Naim has been surprised by the level of criticism for the update process.  I believe they thought that, given it is only used once or twice per year, most folks wouldn't be at all bothered.  Obviously that is not the case, and hopefully they can locate or invent a better update process for their next generation of network players.

One thing's for sure -- they should have delivered a Mac-based installer from day one.  IMO, it was error in judgement for Naim to mandate the use a Windows-based system, and they should not have been surprised by the negative reaction.  They also missed the boat with the early NDX systems like mine.  IMO, it was ridiculous to force the need for owners to purchase a USB-to-RS232 adapter and driver!  At the very least, this should have been included with early NDX purchases!

Hook

Are you saying that your original post was a lie - or, incredibly charitably, a very casual error?

I don't understand wthat's bad on the update process/handling with naim. I updated my SU the second time now. Very easy and comfortable with the windows installer, USB-cable and anything works without any problem.

If I wouldn't have a WinPC I just would ask whoever as most people (or friends) have one and most of them would spend half an hour for that.

In my opinion it's more the functionality on nStream itself which still annoys me. The update process doesn't give anything to me provided it works somehow. I just expect nSteam gives me anything I need.. rather soon.

Most fiends?