Changing to streaming - options and thoughts on options..

I have Sonos into a Rega DAC. It is very good. Sonos replaced a Squeezebox and there was no comparison between the interfaces, particularly if you use the Sonos controller. Sonos is excellent for your music library, radio and Spotify. You only really need a s/h ZP80 to get started.

It was critical to me not to have to use a computer to access music. Some third-party controllers using platforms such as the latest iThing can be a bit laggy in use. I understand the SB interfaces have progressed including third-party options and have not seen the very latest.

Personally I don't believe the streamer is that important (other than your happiness with the interface). My perspective is that two things matter. These are 1) that the DAC can properly buffer, re-clock or act asynchronously to manage the data stream it receives and 2) the power supply and circuits in the DAC generate a good analogue signal out the other end.

You were using lossless files so perhaps in your experience it is the DAC implementation of the CD5XS that sounds better than that of the ND5XS?

Suggest considering NDAC, TeddyDAC and Wadia 121 fed by Sonos. Others will disagree etc.

Interested to hear what you discover and decide.

I always used my MacBook running Amarra, but since I saw ( and heard) the new Weiss server I only use my MBP for computer stuff, I have the inbuilt. dac version, so just one box and an IPad to control everything.

H.

Marky Mark, thanks for the reply. Useful information.  Same here, computer after a day working on one is the last thing I want.  Ive not heard Sonos into a system so tomorrow should be interesting. I have played about with Play 3 and the interface seems good. No high-res but not my main proirity.  Be interested to see how Simple Audio sounds/feels as well. 

How did it go San999? In a similar boat so v. interested.

Hey! where is my post gone? It said I was the last to post 8 mins ago but the post is nowhere to be seen. Looks like there was a glitch or I got moderated (don't remember saying anything rude...) or I was too boring. 

Can't be bothered now... going to bed.

Exact same thing happened to me. After 25 years of Naim ownership, three Unitiserve  and an NDX purchase so far this year and yet my post was deleted perhaps because I use another company's DAC. Perhaps there is a problem with the forum software.

Not sure why third party iThings should be laggy, I use them and find absolutely no lag. It may be worth looking at your LAN setup. If you are using wireless for both streaming and control this would definitely cause a lag problem. Go wired as much as possible. Anyway I agree about the DAC the important thing, get the music stream into the best DAC that you can afford. I tried a lot of them over a year ago and chose the Naim DAC, it was great but even better when I moved my XPS 2 from the Naim CD player to the DAC it became vastly better.

Even more importantly... trust your ears. Happy auditioning.

Well, lets just say I ended up with some answers but no decision. Briefly;

Not the best start as the friendly dealer was late and therefore with only 1 person in the shop they struggled to get things going until said friendly dealer turned up about 30 mins late. I know them well so not a problem and very apologetic (tooth infection the cause and he did look like death warmed up to be fair) but it did eat into my listening time so I didnt get everything in I wanted to. Speakers were Kudos x2 and naim cables/naca5.

 Briefly my findings (to my ears), all files were lossless and premium spotify option.

Sonos-ndac-xs amp - streaming sounds good, very good. Spotify also good but was it better than my current set up? Didnt do a side by side test but for the dosh im not sure i would spend the money on this option to get the conveniance of streaming, although I loved the Spotify interface. Some tracks sounded a little harsh and would be difficult to listen to for a long period.  From my memory of using the Rega/Audiolab yes it was better but Im not sure that much better.

Superuniti - loved it, plenty of drive and meat and good detail. Great product and really like the sleeve and artist detail on the naim interface  Next step has to be home demo, but if itsnt significantly better than current set up in terms of sound I wouldnt go for it as I will always prefer sq over the bells and whistles.  To me it sounded a littler clearer and fresher than the first option.  I also tried the Sonos into the SU and it again was good, clear and plenty of drive for the quality of the streaming. 

On balance the SU was the nicer sound for me and I felt delivered a fuller and more engaging sound than when I borrowed the ND5XS. Just not sure if one box is for me and with the pace of streaming in the future? If I was buyingfresh this would be  wonderful option but i am hesitant to move away from pre-power set up.

Also, tried the Simple Audio through the XS without the Dac - to me had a good sound.   Good detail and honestly a very good sound not far away from a rega/audiolab dac for £500  But, Ipad interface doesnt fit whole screen, which is a shame so it spoils the user experience. The sonos and Naim interface in comparison is far better. 

And then, I ran out of time - 2.5 hours later. Still no decisions, I need to hear the Ndac and SU side by side to Rega/Audiolab dacs with sonos.  My guess is there will be an improvement but by how much?

 I will try a home demo of SU and N-dac because of course I can hook my cd through it and see how that changes the sound.  That might be the clincher.

Sorry no conlusions but I feared this would be the case and unfortunately I ran out of time.   Maybe Im not totally convinced to make the switch over. I do love my current system to me its spot on.  I have previously owned Rega gear and its lovely sounding but I do love the Naim sound, quality build and it does float my boat.  Switching back to Rega or indeed Audiolab for a dac i dont think would fulfil me and therefore its either a SU possibly, an Ndac option or cough splutter ahem look at the Naim NDX. But i would like to do the comparisons first.

 Im going to book in for a couple weeks time and also get some home demos going again. 

Anyone any thoughts on NDX v cd5xs - is it significantly improved sound? 

Strange Bermuda triangle delays post by 9 hours.....

Anyway SAN999 it's a shame you didn't get as much auditioned as you planned but I sympathise with the dealer and the tooth infection.

It might be a blessing in disguise because you will be able to do the comparison in your home environment now. Let us know how you get on.

> Anyone any thoughts on NDX v cd5xs - is it significantly improved sound? 

No ... imho. The SQ is about the same unless you have high resolution records or have ripped some vinyl to 24/96. The Naim DAC is a huge step up though. My view is that a modest streamer like the one from Denon feeding a Naim DAC gives better sound for less money. 

Of course, NDX + Naim DAC, which Naim says is a upgrade over the bare NDX is excellent, but a bit expensive.  

My view is DAC and on to speakers makes more difference than than what comes before the DAC. 

Some the best results I have had are from a £3.50 transport from Cabletron - connecting it to rear USB port on the Naim DAC and playing direct from USB sticks. The user interface is horrible, but the sound is great. 

Remember with the Sonos you cannot play high resolution music - I have a W4S Sonos and it is superb if you want to play CD rips through the Naim DAC over a wireless LAN. That said I don't use it that much as I have a Mac Mini plugged in to the DAC and it does play up to 24/96. However, if we are just talking ripped CDs then there is no real difference in SQ. 

My advice is to get the best DAC you can within your budget ... the Naim is first class and my choice, but if too expensive then Chord Electronics has a nice DAC for under £1k (avoid its USB port though for best sound though - not a comment on USB in general, but with this particular DAC). 

Good idea re home demo next. Your own CD/amps/speakers will help call it. As you say the CD test will narrow it down. Also the room setup different of course. So many variables!

Think your pre/power will beat the Nait XS (if this is indeed what the dealer used?). Heard one and thought it not the best tbh.

Food for thought re SU. As one box hard to separate what was better vs the various components. Would (completely) guess that the internal pre/power are similar to the Nait XS though so the dealer demo might hold....tbc!

@Spartacus laggy thing was wrt to index retrieval. Wired here (bar control). Issue was SB control software on iThing >> router >> SB (used to have) >> slim server >> router >> control. Or something like that. Sonos faster at time. Expect things better now and fact you're not seeing lag says they are.

Consider keeping the CD5XS, whatever you do.  It is an exceptional player; and for what you might get in trade, you are better off keeping it, if only as a benchmark against future streamers.  Be glad you did not go higher, or this might not be the case.  And:  the ND5XS gives you ipad control of the CD5XS while adding streaming.  Maybe audition a power supply later to add to the ND.

I love streaming.  I use both a Mac Mini into nDAC, and Squeezebox Touch, and will buy an NDsomething soon.  But, streaming systems inevitably go down for days or weeks, due to software changes or network issues.  CD is nice to fall back on at these times.

All IMHO.

Nick

BTW, if I had a 122x/150x, I'd never let them go, either.  Great sound for the $.  Cheers.

Marky Mark - The SU sounded great.  I dont think it is for me, having had a couple days to think on it. Regardless of sq v current set up. I would rather stick with a small number of boxes including pre/power as gives me more options in the future and I have avoided the one box solutions in the past. Thats just me and my preference.   More and more thinking of Naim dac and some other streamer option (sonos or an other cheap streamer).  If you are happy with one box its a great sounding beast and with all the functions very good vfm I think. I need to hear Ndac at home so thats next step and compare to Rega/Audiolab .

Guido/Nick/Spartacus - thank you for your input and suggestions.  More and more Im thinking keep current set up and go for Ndac afte a listen ast home.  Pre/power and cd are just so toe-tapping, after 3 years of ownership I still love the sound and deep down it will probably take a big shift in sq to move them on. As you say its a fall back also if the streaming route falls over.  I think throwing the money into the Ndac gives me more options and flexibility in the future.   

I dont remember my last major purchase of 3 years ago being so complicated!!

My posts keep getting deleted but I will have one last try; I use four systems sourced by three Unitiserves. They are outstanding units and work fantastically straight into a good Dac then into your existing equipment. I do not rate the NDX DAC at all and I use a certain Israeli manufactured DAC mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I have to believe that the Naim ndac is better than the one in the NDX. You will have all the iPad control as well as rocksolid ripping and UPnp. 

"Consider keeping the CD5XS, whatever you do."

+1 - I have a CD5X & I wish I had the XS, because where the future is going it would be a great "last" CD player to own, it allows you to use it as a transport, and as stated above by Nick, it is a fine player in its own right, especially on a performance for the money basis.

It is, much better 

DrMark,

 You could always get your CD5X converted to a transport for around £250 at naim or by one of there service engineers .Chris West i believe does it in the USA.

Stu.

Hi SAN999,

I find that the suggestions given here in this forum are pretty valid, giving you some food for thoughts. However, I do find product comments can be pretty misleading for e.g. A is better than B or vice versa. You have to hear it and judge for yourself. At times when you expect more you get less and just when you expect little you"ll be surprised! 

I have three Naim systems each using a Unitiserve as the server. The best value by a country mile is the Unitiserve straight into a Teddy Pardo Dac with volume control straight into the amps. The least satisfying is the most expensive using a Unitiserve into an NDX then analogue out into my Classé SSP-800 av processor then into my stack of Parasound JC-1 mono blocs with B&W 802 Diamonds as the speakers. The first time I plugged in the NDX I was shocked at the muddled bloated lower mid range. It was so shocking I returned the unit for a replacement. My room is a dedicated room that is massively treated on every surface including the ceiling. I added an XPS power supply to the streamer but that tightened up the bass but left the mid range problem. On a whim I put the TeddyDac onto the digital out of the NDX and suddenly I was riveted. Everything improved over some sixty test tracks ( with the sole exception of some 24 bit Eric Clapton that was pretty splashy to start with and the extended top end made it too bright). I rigged it up so that I could select the NDX Dac or the teddy Dac and then asked my wife to select on of the two buttons. She did not know which represented which so it was double blind. I could pick and prefer the teddy Dac in 100% of the cases. After years of diminishing returns here was a huge improvement. Of course any competent digital source will sound as good as the Unitiserve but it is such a rock solid uPnP server, so easy to live with and never stops working because iTunes is asking me if I want to upgrade to the latest version. I have never heard the Naim Dac but I could not be less impressed with the Dac in the NDX. 

I was at the event when Julian launched Naim's first CD player and demonstrated it with a pair of DBLs, a six pack of 135s a 52 and compared it to the LP12. It was the first time that I heard the LP12 and I remember leaving the event with the one thought that the record deck was one sweet source and how harsh the CD player was. Some 25 years later I now can get that sweet sound from a digital source. 

Follow your instinct and if you feel the streamer is a retrograde step then do not try and convince yourself. I learned the hard way that a great source, great speakers, stunning amplification and an average Dac will never shine and never communicate in a way worthy of your listening time. 

I returned my first NDX due to very poor performance. The second was identical so I added an XPS for a modest improvement and then added a TeddyDAC for a huge improvement. I would urge you to try a Unitiserve into either an NaimDAC or TeddyDAC and then into your existing system. Any good digital source would of course do but the Unitiserve is such a sweet uPnP implementation.

True ... it is opinion. You must try it and see/hear. 

I honestly think the Naim DAC is a superb piece of kit and I can't fathom why anybody would use a standalone ND5XS or NDX when they could play from a Mac or CD transport through the Naim DAC, but tastes vary