STOP PRESS. NaimDAC v's ND5 XS: Dealer comments.

I am not so sure that streamers have buffers that big.  Someone here will tell me

(The same could be said of the Naim DAC; why not just build in a huge storage buffer and then not worry about how data gets there.)

Even the ancient and now defunct ZP80 had 128MB RAM + 32MB flash. Not sure what was dedicated to buffering!

Re the NDAC, I think your general concept is correct (and it is the basis of what has been implemented). However, as SPDIF does not deliver 'all in one go' as ethernet does you could not hold an entire track or album in memory even if you wanted to without latency between pressing play and the buffer filling up.

Maybe this is the best way forward. Press play and hear it perfectly with no jitter or RF a few minutes later once the buffer is full? In fact, in the intervening minutes you could copy it to a SD card and then physically put said card in a completely separate device in another room thereby isolating everything. Unless there was a static charge in your body which adversely affected subsequent replay...perhaps special Naim gloves needed???

If S/PDIF were so bad, how come the NDS has an S/PDIF out as well as S/PDIFs in? Why does the DAC have S/PDIFs in? When Naim brings out their 500 series DAC I bet the interconnection will still be S/PDIF, coax and toslink. IMV this is such a theoretical discussion it has little bearing whatsoever for the kit Jason wants to invest in. The audible differences here are so minute, if they exist at all, that it's not worth wasting time on, unless of course you are interested in the theory. Bottom line, there is a tendency on this forum to discuss little things to the nth degree and those reading it thinking it's all very important stuff. It isn't, it just gets in the way of enjoying your music. I don't care about RF, don't want to. I don't want to tweak my system to the nth degree, move my speakers 2mm to the left or right, because it gets you away from the real essence, which is the emotion that is communicated by the music. Buying new and spending all this money is silly anyways. You get more for your money buying second hand or at least you'll pay less for the same. Going further up the chain, yes it all sounds better but the music is still the same. As someone has aptly pointed out elsewhere, the more money you spend on your system the more you start thinking about system things and not the music. I probably enjoyed my CD5X/FC2X/Nait XS/Totem Arro system more than the system I have now. The music I was hearing was certainly no less emotionally involving. I got more of everything now but not more joy. The day will come when I will sell it all cause quite frankly, I can't be bothered any longer with the constant thinking about this, that and the other. As you can tell, I am not quite there yet though  

Keep it simple and stay away from the forum once you've made your purchase would be my advice.

Best

tp

Additionally,  the problem is not the Naim DAC but the UServe as it does not posess the specific hardware/software to deliver a perfect bitstream of data even if one used a Toslink (SPDIF) in place of the coax?????????? So that one would need a dedicated streamer (such as the ND5) to send out a bit perfect stream to the amp combo.

Sorry, but I would dispute that. In a mad moment I decided to send a bitstream from iTunes through a Naim UnitiQute and capture the digital output and compare it with the original and it was the same. I tried some other transports and it was the same. It didn't seem to matter (provided the player didn't upsample) ... bit perfect was not an issue. I would expect the ND5 and US to also deliver bit perfect data to the DAC.  

The Mark Grant cable (£30) or Wireworld Supernova 6 (rather more) are very well made Toslink (never tried jumping on it) and I find they sound excellent ... I have a MF V-Link box (not used now) and it has Toslink and Coax ... the Toslink sounds better to me ... I can only assume it is electrical noise from the Coax that is the issue. Both are bit perfect. 

I see no advantage for any super streamer at any price over an inexpensive streamer in terms of bit-perfectness ... there may be other factors that affect the sound though. I would assume the NDX has a vastly superior Coax digital out to the V-Link for example (actually it is more than an assumption - the NDX has). 

Gary - best put chokes around the SPDIF lead as it enters the DAC. Add more until no difference is heard. If you don't hear any difference at all then fine, at least you ahven't waited too much money. TRy clamp around the the ehernet lead entering your Naim equipment as well. For this sort in of in exact excercise the ferrite admittance is not  critical, and its more about getting the right size to fit around the cable.

Regards

Simon

Hi Jason I beleive the Unitiserve like other Naim equipment only has electrical SPDIF output. SPDIF is a protocol that encapsulates the specially encoded fragmented PCM. Therefore SPDIF has its own clock, the transport clock, that is differnet from the sample clock of the encapsualted sample data. So yes the Unitiserve has a SPDIF transport clock.

Finally the signal in the TOSLINK or coax is at RF. The interference carried in the shield/ground return or common mode are stray RF currents that are indepenedent to the inended signal (which is also at RF) 

Simon

Mark, I think we are saying basically the same thing. Flipping of bits although possible is probably extremely unlikely unless you have an intermittnet signal synchornization, which means you wold need poor conenctions or a really unstable source clock.

The Naim receiver will recover the payload PCM from the SPDIF and it synchronises the PCM frequency to a ratio of the SPDIF clock frequency - either by matching to an industry defined precise frequency of the transport clock or by using a phase locked loop to 'tune' in on the transport clock. If its the latter the left hand size sync LED extinguishes on the NDAC.

However I beleive the logic switching circuitry to recover the sampled data itself produces noise on the powerlines (an artefact with logic gate switching which is very hard to eliminate entirely) and it is this that can product noise in the phase domain which maps to the time domain or frequency domain in the reconstructed analogue signal.

Is RF more important to address than trasnsport clock jitter with modern equipment  - yes I truly beleive so and  by focusiing here I beleive my NDAC/555PS setup powered by NDX is truly outstanding which so far has not been bettered by auditioned NDS/555PS setups.

Finally your point about the internet not working. Ok many combined points here. But basically SPDIF and asynchronous USB is about the value of the signal at particular point in time. The value of the signal  (1 or 0 if you like) is meaningless if not pinpointed to a precise point a time.

The internet or more accurately TCP/IP uses two common trasnport protocols. One is TCP - which has time removed from the value of the data - and is packaged up in windows and confirmed and / or resent in windows. This is the norm for regular web traffic and is non realtime and is typically significantly buffered. There is also a transport method called UDP. This is a stream of data split into packets (called datagrams). its a fire and forget - if its not received correctly its thrown away This is a used in IP Telephony and other realtime transfers. Here latency and jitter is ciritical. This is like SPDIF. The internet is notoriously bad for this sort of realtime data which is why commercial organizations typically use private networks like MPLS to manage this data type using a technique called Class of Service, where differnt packet types have priorotiy over other packet types to ensure things like jitter and latency are managed within strict limits.

Simon

Thank you once again Simon.

Your points make sense even for a non technical person like myself.

Gary

To clear things further up (not), why not a re-read of Allen's post comparing UnitiQute/UnitiServe/NDX into nDAC/555PS:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/di...ent/5086599871887561

No ND5XS (it didn't exist then), but it shows that differences can be heard, provided the rest of the system, and the setup, and your room, and your ears, are up to it.

In Allen's ears, the UnitiServe digital out comes last, but note that some here have witnessed they preferred the more rounded sound of the Serve.

And to the unavoidable, bland and helpless conclusion: only your ears can decide (with the help of your wallet).

Have a nice Sunday nonetheless Jason

Maurice

It's important to remember though Maurice that Allen's system is maxed out to the full, nDAC/555PS/NAC552/NAP500, all on Naim Fraim and a Powerline on every box, hooked up to a pair of Ovator S-600. While Allen no doubt was able to hear differences, it's pretty much an intellectual exercise in Jason's case, with little or no relevance to SQ in his envisaged system. But as you aptly pointed out his own ears should be the final judge. IMHO other factors such as convenience and preference of UI are equally, if not more important.

Still a very interesting read that thread....

tp

Abolutely TP, that's what I was trying to say, thanks for making it clearer than me !

Jason wanted advice on spending 5.5k and I believe that in the responses he received some useful data points. We learned that AllenB discerns a difference when adding an NDX into his system whilst I do not. I can always hear a positive improvement when I buy an expensive new power supply or hifi rack, but I can never spot a difference if I assemble two systems and have someone swap from one to another in a double blind test. Within a budget of 5.5k are we really trying to justify the dubious sonic benefit of a £3000 network player with which we will disconnect its DAC.

People get pleasure from their equipment through many routes and that is great for them. Buy a Fraim if you like the look but not to get a sonic improvement commensurate with the money. Don't discount buying second hand as you could get much better value. Spend money on equipment that gives you what moves your sonic adventure forwards. I buy some expensive power leads because they look nice, I cannot honestly tell a Russ Andrews from the one that came with the Naim unit in a double blind trial. AllenB spent money on Naim Ovator S600 speakers, I bought B&W 802 Diamonds but there is not a Powerline nor a Fraim to my name. I found I did not really like the sound of the S600s but it is all a facsimilie of real life so choose what moves you. My preference is vice like grip on large speakers so I have 5 Parasound JC-1 400w amps. I appreciate the way that they seem to be able to stop the cone faster at the end of the note than the NAP 500 into S600. The S600 seems to be able to generate a big deep bass note with modest power however that I am sure is useful across Naim's range of power amps.

I spent days setting up tests with hugely expensive interconnects but I was not able to tell any difference whatsoever. I sure can tell a difference between my PMC IB1S speakers and my 802 Diamonds. Totally different yet I live with them both in different systems and both give me great pleasure every single day. 

Don't you get curious when people claim to detect a sonic quality that reflects a physical quality of a component being observed. Just in the last few days I have read of glass stands sounding brittle whilst wooden ones sounding warm. Silver speaker cables sounding bright, copper less so. 

My standard is that there has to be such a big improvement that I cannot live without it. Put the £3000 saved on an NDX into a stunning pair of used speakers and you will not only have the real hifi sound, it will knock you off your feet. Where are you based by the way?

Ian

Suggested systems:

1)

2nd hand SuperNait: €2400

2nd hand NDX: €3000

2nd hand Hicap: €800

€6200 or about GBP5200

Store files on your MBP for the time being, using Playback UPnP.

2)

2nd hand Nait XS: €1200

2nd hand nDAC: €1750

Dr. Gert Volk Sonos: €650

€3,600

Store files on your MBP for the time being or buy an AssetNas 2TB for €898.

Job done, ready to enjoy some splendid sounding music!      

I like the way you are thinking. My £5500 might be spent as follows

S/h SuperNait £2100

s/h Ndac £1500

New Unitiserve 2TB £1900

Control the Unitiserve with an iphone or iPad, have all the convenience of the best UPnP source I have ever found, a place for all your music and ripping and tagging as easy as can be.

Ian

Hi Lumos, TP,

I am based in Oslo.

I have searched the second hand web sites, not extensively though, and there really is a lack of second hand Naim gear around. I have found one Uniti on the biggest second hand web site but I am not into that, much prefer to go down the separates route at this point.

I have arranged to demo the two options listed in the OP, as follows:

UServe + Naim DAC + NACXS + NAPXS

UServe + NDX5 + NACXS + NAPXS

on the ground that, after all the discussions on this thread, I am keen to hear if there is a discernible difference either way and I will report back as to my personal preference.

Cheers. 

3) Mac Mini (€600)/Bit Perfect App (€5)/Thunderbolt Cable (€30)/WD Thunderbolt MyBook (€400)

    Mark Grant Optical Cable (€40) 

    2nd Hand Naim DAC (€1750)

    2nd Hand Nait 5i (€600)

€3,425 and add 2nd Hand XPS2 for €3200 when you can afford it. 

From TPs systems I'd choose #2 every time, but with Vortexbox appliance (€500) replacing AssetNas to avoid Windows [and give you bit perfect rips every time] ... however Mac can play high resolution, You Tube, iPlayer and so on which may or may not matter) and you could replace my suggested disks with a Promise DAS to store 100,000 CDs if you have them - the Sonos has the best interface. .

The Vortexbox can serve Apple, Sonos, Naim, Linn, Squeezebox and the tea.  

Job done, ready to enjoy some splendid sounding music!  

3) is a good system too Guido and your point about the Mac being able to play hires a very valid one. I suggested Sonos because as you say it still has the best UI around and hires is not important to me at the moment. I found that the quality of the recording makes a huge difference and can deliver awsome sound at 16/44.1, i.e. plain Red Book CD standard. I am curious why you threw a Thunderbolt storage device into the mix, surely this is way OTT for a couple of hundred CDs. No? To my knowledge the immense bandwith and throughput of Thunderbold is of no additional benefit in audio, plain Ethernet or USB 2/3 is more than adequate to deliver the relevant files. 

I think Jason still has difficulties believing that a Mac into nDAC sounds just as good as a ND5XS or US into nDAC. I think he is also put off by his perceived ripping complexities and probably thinks the US will do it better. Maybe experimenting with ripping in iTunes and using XLD will eleviate some of this unjustified ripping fright. It really is so very simple once you've spent some time trying it for yourself. Going the Mac Mini/Sonos/nDAC route will certainly give him sound quality on par with US/nDAC for a fraction of the price. It will certainly also beat the US/ND5XS combo.

My advice would be to jump in the deep end and start ripping to get a feel for the process....

tp

Good, let us know of your preference once done. May I make one suggestion, why not take your Macbook Pro along and play and AIFF file via an optical cable connected to the Naim DAC instead of the US while at the dealer? Just so you know what difference there is in sound quality. Ask him in advance whether he has got a good optical cable, mini toslink to toslink. If not, buy a cheap one yourself prior to the audition, you should be able to get one for €10 in any large media store. 

Rip something like Buena Vista Social Club, their recordings are stupendous, a classical recording or your Tim Buckley Live in London CD, if you still have it. Ask the dealer to rip the same CD on his US, just to compare.

To rip a CD in iTunes:

- open iTunes

- click on the iTunes tab next to the black Apple logo in the top left hand corner

- select preferences

- in the box that opens lower down you'll find a pull down menue "When you insert a CD", select "Import CD and Eject" or "Ask to Import CD"

- click on "Import Settings", select AIFF Encoder, Sample Rate on Auto, Sample Size choose 16-bit, under Channels choose Stereo

- tick the field "Use error correction when reading Audio CDs"

- click OK

- back on the main box, tick "Automatically retrieve CD track names from Internet" and "Automatically download missing album artwork"

- enter the CD

- click on the "Import CD" button in the right lower corner

- or go to "File" in the horizontal menue at the top and select "Add to Library"

- wait for CD to be copied to your library, once done that's where you'll find it.

Job done....

Yes agree TP, with 200 CD you could lose the Thunderbolt and external drives ....  an option for later when you want the expansion because you love the sound so much you just can't stop buying music.. .... 

The Mac and US make exactly the same rips in terms of SQ and both are as good as the Vortexbox which makes perfect rips .... they are all exactly the same in the ripping stakes. You can prove this for samples, by extracting the PCM and doing a bit compare. There is no subjectivity involved .. every sample I tried was 100% the same. [Does anybody know a really rotten ripper that makes a complete mess of things because I've not found one]. 

The Mac Mini has very low noise/jitter and the cable I suggested isolates it from the DAC ... it'll load the DAC buffer perfectly (bit perfectly in fact) ... as will the US, of course. 

For the best SQ .. just get a front-end that is low noise and works ... spend your cash on the DAC and what comes after ... if money is no object then US is as good a choice as any (not as versatile as a Vortexbox though - again that might not matter).

Vortexbox backup is one button press, I've no idea how to backup the US. I'd definitely ask for a demo of how to do this before buying a US. Unless you are a computer engineer then assume upgrading a Naim Streamer's software (not the US or DAC) is a dealer service - again that might not matter. 

All the best, Guy

[Record players and cassette decks are easier and are hard to beat in terms of SQ].  

TP, 

Rip something like Buena Vista Social Club, their recordings are stupendous, a classical recording or your Tim Buckley Live in London CD, if you still have it. 

Cant believe you remember that I had Tim Buckley all those years ago (16 years), good memory...D.

TP and GF are giving you very good advice, and I appreciate their raising a point that was not clear on my system recommendation. I do not expect the Unitiserve to provide any better rips than the usual ripping solutions. In fact I rarely rip directly with the Unitiserve as it does not suit my particular use case. I have three Unitiserves in three locations so I find it easier to rip in DBPower Amp and copy to each unitiserve. Most of my content I buy is from HDTracks or murfie.com so the new 2TB unitiserve ability to copy my downloads works very well.

Furthermore, I do not really expect the quality of the digital output to be better than the solutions mentioned by GF and TP. It is just that it makes the process as easy as a CD player with much greater functionality. The Naim app (NServe) is excellent and I believe that given your pre-power selection you will be able to control the volume directly from the app. 

Your point the Unitiserve at a location for your backups and they run automatically and silently. Updates are done by a download then connecting via USB to run update.

Thus it gives you no sonic advantage, does not rip better but it means that your music is always on tap, not waiting for a response to "a new version of iTunes is available do you want to download it?". It is not essential, but gives me a whole lot more pleasure than looking at a Naim Fraim. Just get a good demo and see if it gives you enough usability advantages for the cost.

Ian

I have never experienced this in 18 months of running a headless Mac Mini. iTunes and OSX has been updated several times to date.

Lumos, are you sure you can control the volume from within the nServe app? I thought this is just possible with nStream or is only full pre amp control that nStream offers and the volume can be controlled via nServe?

Actually I am not sure; whilst I use both NServe and NStream I never get the volume control as I no longer use Naim amplification. I had assumed that it worked with both but thinking about it I am not surprised that it only works with the streaming product. I wonder if the unified app will solve it when it arrives.

Ian