STOP PRESS. NaimDAC v's ND5 XS: Dealer comments.

Hi Jason,

Thanks for a very interesting and descriptive post.

Gerry

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the write up. Was the UnitiServe connected to the ND5 via S/PDIF or through a router (or switch)?

Jan

P.S. Did you ever get a chance to audition any of the Amphion speakers? 

Interesting.

What I struggle to understand is how you could have felt that the ND5 is more analytical. From a technical point of view this is next to impossible as the DAC chip in the Naim DAC is of much better quality.Did an iteresting test once, ND5 pure into SN/HC vs. Dr Gert Volk into nDAC/555PS/SN/HC and the Sonos/nDAC combo won hands down. Especially at higher volumes the ND5 sounded more distorted and less clean. Now plain vanilla ND5/XS range may be different, don't know.

Still, what you haven't tested is files off your Mac / NAS or AssetNAS served up over the network with UPnP vs. files being served up by the US.

The sound will be the same and ripping is easy as can be....

I struggle to understand why you are spellbound to spend that sort of money on a box that does nothing else other that rip, store and serve. I'd put the money towards some better speakers but then it's not my money...

ATB

tp

Not surprising, the DAC-based source costs 4 times more...not really a fair comparison IMO

Glad you have reached the right conclusion for you Jason. Good luck and enjoy the new kit

On the broader topics discussed though, any difference in sound has nothing to do with check-sum etc. That is akin to being insured for everything. Insured for ability to pay for all the insurance, frozen food replaced in event of asteroid strike etc

The use of this terminology in explanation of sound quality is well intentioned but inappropriate and confusing to those coming into computer audio.

What a nice write up Jason !! it is very clear you made a very thorough analysis and audition and you can now be sure you purchased something that really suites your needs. Enjoy your new kit.

did you by the way embed the XP5xs in your audition ?

Cheers,

iver

Hi Jason, I am glad you have a system that sound good to you and is satisfying. I think the comments from your dealer, perhaps well intentioned, but are nonesense. SPDIF  and RTP over TCP (Ethernet protocols are very different but equally capable protocols for carrying audio.. Each suited to their own envionment (both use checksums) ... There is also USB out here as well.

The DAC can sound awesome, and top of the class with Naim audio products.. But it can sound a pup... If not set up well... Kind of makes it interesting and a lot of people seem to be able to get to get it at its best... Because, and arguably rightly so, can't be botheredwith the tweaking.

In my (ok quite extensive) expierience both bad and good with the NDAC over the last couple of years I have found the following:

A) NDAC needs seperate analogue powersupply

B) ndac is sensitive to RFI.. Take care on mains and SPDIF connects. Use RF chokes.

C) ndac is sensitive to transport jitter in the source SPDIF. Although it de jitters, in my expierience in doing so it creates digital RF side effects that harden the audio.

D) ndac is sensitive to isolation... Use the best you can.. Top shelf Fraim works well.

E) the analogue out is quite sensitive to loading characteristics, and so experimentation is required with interconnects. The wrong cable will ring and give a hard attacking quality to the audio which is rather hard and non analogue.. Or the other extreme deaden the sound.

However get these right, and the NDAC is sublime and have not heard it beat by any old or recent addition to the Naim portfolio (including NDS, but I haven't learnt the optimum tweaks for the latter...yet), but get it wrong and you wonder what the fuss is about.

Simon

Hi Simon,

impressed by all the technical background you bring here ! I have seen you writing about RF Chokes more than once. I am not native English so had tonuse Google Translater and Google Images to see what they really are, but still not sure :-) .... Pfff :-) .... Would you mind putting a picture here of a RF Choke ? Tx mate, Iver

Iver cast your eyes on these...

http://www.google.co.uk/search...biw=1024&bih=672

Simon

super, thanks Simon

Simon, as I know you're a NDAC fan, have you tried NDS in the role of dac? I mean placing NDS on the shelf where your NDAC normally resides, using your NDX as the transport into it, with all your RFI chokes, cabling etc in place as normally with your NDAC? Naturally selecting off all NDS features that are not needed in this setup.

I haven't had chance to hear NDS but I understand its dac section is quite similar to NDAC, with the advantage of a better enclosure. Of course there is also the disadvantage of having the streaming section in there as well, but I'd be surprised if NDS is not Naim's best dac at the moment?

I guess at that level of sources your amplification, listening priorities etc also determines what you'll hear of the differences and do they matter.

Hi Guys,

Today I was at the New Music show in La Hulpe, Brussels where also Naim was represented by distributor Latham. The show was very well organized with lots of interesting new gear, but also a lot of music represented by the Stockfisch label.

At a lucky moment when less busy at the Naim stand, the very friendly Naim-guy was willing to demonstrate ND5XS versus ND5XS + XP5XS versus NDX, where the rest of the system was 282/SuperCap/300 and Ovator 400. I was auditioning together with a SuperUniti - owner. A bit unfortunate; the Naim-guy told me upfront that the NDX would outperform the ND5XS/XP5XS combo by quite some margin. To my ears he misjudged; when adding the XP5XS to the ND5XS everything became wider, more mature, easier on the ears and more definition. I liked it enourmously. After that he changed to a bare NDX (similar in price as ND5XS+XP5XS) which was also very good, but to my opinion (and my neighbour) missed the sparkling and some detail. The demo more or less re-convinced me to do a serious home demo of adding an XP5XS to my ND5XS. It is strange how people perceive sound quality differently especially realizing how firm the guy was in his argument to present the NDX as the way to go. The Ovators 400 on the other hand where a very confirming duo. My god, they sound nice and mature. So much power and authority. I was impressed.

 By the way; the demo was done with music from Jen Chapin who's an amazing singer/songwriter I did not know.

Maybe not said here, but let's go. On this show, one could all hear them; from Denon/marantz onto Classe, Dynaudio and Audionote with also some very special makes like HotChocolate, AudioNote and Devialet. Apart from Naim, there is one however that blows me away everytime: anyone familiar with Steinway Lingdorf ? Pffff........... they are in a similar price range as a full Naim XS range (around 13K€ talking imaging and precison :-) .... hmmmm :-)

Cheers,

Iver

Hi Mark and Simon,

Thank you for your comments on this matter, I shall be wary of dealer verbosity

Perhaps it was a case of the set up not being condusive to a sublime NaimDac sound at the time of the demo, I just don't know.

And perhaps I should use a different verb other than "analytical" to describe the sound character of the ND5 over the NaimDAC....maybe the ND5 was a little more 'tidy in the tweeter and high notes or top range'. Why this was the case I also don't know and I don't care...the music spoke and that's all that matters.

But, however the forum wants to view my demo this was my experience regardless of set up. And frankly I can't see myself worrying about the nuances of tweaking the system, thats not why I am buying Naim gear. I know that many forum members like to play and experiment and its their passion and hobby all rolled into one, however I am just here to listen to excellent sounding music and not spend time messing, playing or experimenting with a. the computer aspect or b. the audio tweaking aspect...although I understand that this may change over time.

I really have little time, inclination or interest in concerning myself with the computery side of playing music and I certainly don't want to switch on a pc or mac just to play my music...for me that is very tedious and whats the point? It seems to me that the only persons going down this route are those that enjoy playing on a computer and/or would like to play music but with the least cost outlay, these are perfectly reasonable reasons, but my reasons concern keeping things as simple as possible in terms of audio equipment....not computer equipment. I am trying to keep my environment as free from EMF (power frequency electrical fields) as possible whilst attaining a hi level of SQ. IMO there are many forum members who seem to have an enormous array of electrical hardware and software just to play their music and then if you include the other components used in the home that are not for playing music, including tv's etc, the environment is almost certainly saturated with EMF. There is much research on the subject both for the home and for the workplace....but this is for another thread and by someone with more expert knowledge, Simon perhaps. What I do know is that as an Architect it is an increasing issue within the home, it has been an issue in the work place for decades, and more people are concerned with it and I am often seeking out consultants to discuss the issues........new thread...........

Its a question of attitude not money and the Naim products provide a 'turnkey' solution to ripping storing and serving in one box, designed to work together seamlessly with their other products. I also believe in the rational of an holistic approach to design, whereby there are often hidden benefits, for example minimal material usage and waste. Design and user integration, perhaps less time to set up and use. If something goes wrong, then its a one stop shop to get it fixed rather than spending a tedious amount of time going to more than one place, a severe wastage of time. Time is a very important essence in all our lives, this seems to be forgotten by many. I choose to spend my time on things which do not require worrying or actually fixing problems than need otherwise not be there.

This is not a rant at the forum but I am simply trying to explain my thinking (and in some cases, this has been a little discovery in myself during my period on the forum), toward playing music and hence my listening and buying habits. I am after the listening experience not the computer experience.

By the way, this forum is a master class of knowledge and it has been much appreciated by me.

Cheers,

Hi Iver, many thanks for that write up, very interesting, I am glad you finally got your  XP5XS fix And I shall investigate Jen Chapin.

Cheers.

 Hi Fedor, I have only heard the NDS on other peoples systems. including very impressive ones.. But to be honest system balance is a personal thing and to my ears no system sounds better thanh my own.. But I guess that goes for many of us after we have optimised and painfully chosen pur amps, speakers and acoustic treatments through trial and error to what we prefer. My personal preference is detail and I love to listen into the music and appreciate sublties in recording and technique, warts and all.

So to your points.. One of the areas that really seems to excel with Naim is splitting the DAC powersupplies between digital and analogue. This works superbly well with NDAC, CD555 and NDS. To my earsputting the NDS on a singlepowersupply is robbing a lot of  it's potential the same way as the DAC, but perhaps not to the same extent as the NDAC.

You are right as I understand it the NDAC and NDS DACsections are similar with the latter having better mechanical decoupling. I certainly believe it's easier with the NDS to get it sounding good out of the box, rather than the tweaking required for the NDAC (IMO) and I think that is the major enhancement for the NDS... And who knows? Naim might have looked at some of the comments and tweaks mentioned on this forum over the recent years to optimise the design of the NDS.

Hi Jason, I am no 'expert'. I am a 'normal' professional  electronics and computer engineer who has to deal with this stuff reguarly. Not as always low level as I used to be, more design architect around digital communication systems now, but still need to do the exams and labs where a lot of the detail is learnt as well the painful part of learning from professional mistakes... and this is what introduced me to digital audio/video rfi many many years ago..

In the home, if one is considerate one can keep EMI and ensuing RFI at bay. Always use quality filtered SMPS, and steer well clear ethernet over powerline... But for any electrically noisy component in the house (TVs, computers, solar panel inverters, LED lights, dimmers etc) ensure they all comply with EN55022:2006. No exceptions. Quality products will and will clearly state it. Cheaper ones with shortcuts may not or refer to inapproptriate non binding standards to hide the fact on non compliance. If you invest/indulge  in quality audio replay it makes no sense to deliberatly reduce its performance by polluting the environment you live in.

Simon

> As I understand it the Naim DAC and NDS DAC sections are similar 

Simon, I thought they were different in that the Naim DAC used a jitter reducing buffer, whereas the NDS DAC did not need this because of the coupling of the music player to the DAC. I would expect this to have an effect if the NDS were used as a DAC through S/PDIF.

With 555PSs I think you are supplying analogue/digital separately, but not sure. NDS is too complicated for me to want to move to, but it sounded great when I heard it. 

Guy, I believe the de jitter and transport clock synchronisation is effectively the same technique in the ND series and NDAC devices.

The 555PS provides a regulated series of plus / minus and 0 voltages for the busses (22, 10, 15 I believe) , but the digital/analogue busses are combined via the PSU (albeit via seperate regulated lines) in the NDS / CD555 unless you have two power supplies. Of course with the NDAC you can only have one extra powersupply, but when you do so it's internal powersupply bus is split and its internal PSU feeds the digital circuits and the external the analogue circuits, ie the busses are split realising the benefit of two seperate powersupplies.

The NDS DAC does sound great and a refinement on the NDX DAC in many systems, but I am Intriqued what you find complicated about it.. I would have though it's sweet spot is for people wanting to simplify their audio system over having seperate streamers and DACs to achieve the desired quality etc???

Simon

Hi Simon -

Do you still plan to demo the NDS at home?  

I agree with the points you made about listening in unfamiliar situations. I have heard many mega-bucks setups that I would not trade mine for, and that is 100% a function of the time and effort I have put into optimizing for my room (and often with your assistance, so thank you for that).

Am looking forward to getting my first listen to an NDS next weekend at RMAF. My dealer, whose ears I have learned to trust over the years, has purchased an NDS, and he Is in the process of breaking it in.  His initial impression is that the NDS is a significant step up from the NDX->DAC (he is using a 555PS DR for bth setups), so I will likely be home demoing in the next month or so.  

I am amazed by how many incredible choices we have these days. Pretty hard to make a wrong decision!

ATB.

Hook

Check out the "DSP buffer jitter removal" section of the NDS white paper. Similar as NDAC.

Hook - I defintely do - just waiting to clear the credit cards just in case I get smitten ;-)

Thanks Simon, Fedor 

The buffer is in the DSP rather than external RAM then ... so the jitter reduction is still there. 

My views on the complexity of the NDS are that it is a two or three box item, that it seems fussy about what format it was fed (Paul comments in the comparative thread was the trial done with WAV so it seems to imply that for it to shine against the KDS then you must use WAV - my files are not WAV as the format is not very friendly given the computers and software I use), it is not simple to update its software, I read about problems with nStream/iOS6 and .... well I'm immediately having technical concerns and it is not fit and forget. With the Mac I have never had any such issues ... all lossless formats sound the same, trivial to update, Apple remote just works ... I'm not prepared to pay a not inconsiderable amount of money for something that is more complex to use than what I have even for improved SQ. It seems the KDS/1 may give me the SQ boost without any loss in ease of use/maintenance.

The software update I've commented on many times ... it not only requires Windows and special cables/drivers, but also I need to dismantle the system to update it. I've grown use to the likes of ATV and Sonos where it just says update available and you click OK. My Qute remains on an old software version because I have no way to update it. 

All I'm really saying is that a player like the NDS is not suitable for me. In no way am I saying it is not a well built, great sounding product. However, if Naim wanted to market it to potential customers like me then they would need to address the issues I've often cited. To me it seems like it is an incomplete product and it is a bit frustrating to see Naim bring out yet another new steaming device without addressing these problems. Of course, that is Naim's decision, but I do not think I'm alone in finding the current range of products bewildering. 

Why does the Uniti Serve rip to WAV and not AIFF, which would be compatible with the Apple world? At least as an option. The DTC requires Windows, why not a web interface that was OS independent? OK these are all legitimate design decision, but don't really fit for me. 

I had similar views on the ARO ... no easy way to cue, so not for me. I feel nervous every time I use one. So I went for the Ekos SE on my TT. I liked the ARO's sonic qualities, but just two awkward for a ham fisted old dude like me to use. 

So that is why a Naim streamer is not on my list of products to audition - just too complicated for me. 

Guy, thanks for your thoughts, and I understand now. FWIW Asset UPNP/DLNA server has been ported to OSX now, so if you use MAC you can stream WAVs confidently to your Naim even though your media might be stored  as another format.

Simon

Chaps, in case it may be of interest J River MC is also in the process of being ported to OSX (Audio Only which can only be a good thing). Should be available before end of year all being well. Although both Asset and J River are excellent I find the later suits my purpose better. So another choice; can’t be bad.

Peter

Hi Jason,

In that case, the two DACs were not compared on equal terms.

To your ears then, the demo showed that a better method (TCP/IP) for getting data into a lesser DAC was preferable to a lesser method (S/PDIF) into a better DAC.

I have also found this to be the case, but I bought my nDAC before the introduction of the network players (streaming client + DAC). If I were starting today, I would go directly to one of the latter.

Best regards,

Jan