Chaps,
Still on my quest to attain the true HiFi sound, I have heeded the very good sound advice by the Forum on a previous thread I posted relating to the Naim Dac and the ND5 streamer.
Originally, I was going for the UServe - ND5 XS - NAC 152 XS - NAP155 XS, then discovered that the UServe also streams radio and has a better nserve UI and the Forum generally considered the NaimDac to be superior in SQ to the ND5.
Therefore, my choice became: UServe - Naim DAC - NAC 152 XS - NAP155 XS.
After approaching my local dealer to arrange a demo for the NaimDAC option, these were his comments:
“Unitiserve + Naim DAC is not a bad option. We were discussing this part briefly when we had our demo in the summer. But still Naim network playing is a far better way to deliver the digital signal compared to using the coax into the DAC
It`s the better and safer way to deliver the signal because of computer decoupling and check-sum to prevent data loss. Yes, the Unitiserve user interface is better in some ways but with the latest N-Stream 3.0 this is providing a lot more info and metadata directly while listening, playlists will also be available for all streaming products soon. The Naim DAC compared to ND5 XS standalone is of course a better DAC - but the way to deliver the data is best from a network player which Unitiserve isn` t.
You will not go wrong by choosing Unitiserve + Naim DAC, you can always get a network player later on”.
I apologies for playing ping-pong with the Forum and my dealer but as a novice I need to understand the pros and cons if one is to spend that kind of money.
So here are some questions for the Forum:
What is "computer decoupling"?
What is the "check-sum"? and
....one has to use a coax into the Naim DAC from the UServe, this is not as good at delivering the digital signal as what into the NaimDAC from the ND5?
So are these point missed from the advice of the Forum or does the Forum consider it not to be important (not that I would ever doubt you guys)
.
Please feel free to express all types of emotion when replying to this post.
Posted on: 10 October 2012 by MangoMonkey
Originally Posted by Marky Mark:
1) transfer entire file to DAC memory in 4 seconds then play in entirety
would actually work fine for a streamer, and I'm disappointed the cache isn't bigger.
However, not for the Dac. Reason: When the Dac is used in a Video environment there will be LipSync issues.
In addition, it's not rocket science to get it to work. It's really plug and play. But to make it sound right...
Well, I'll report once I get back home whether the Raid 0 had done anything at all.
Posted on: 10 October 2012 by MangoMonkey
I'll be damned!! It still sounds different from my PC, but the sound is now more spacious with a wider soundstage. No chance of an A/B test, suffice it to say I don't want to go back to the earlier mode.
I don't care that there's no redundancy.
It might be because I've got two 3TB disks, but 5400RPM ones. Maybe If I had 2 1TB but at 7200 RPM, things might have been different.
Posted on: 11 October 2012 by Marky Mark
Simon
Agreed configuration of UPNP etc is good to discuss. However, the posts above are about the ability of TCP to transfer the data in time, whether disk brand affects the integrity of data transfer, the need for checksum and so forth.
These and similar items may be passed off as absolutes but miss the point and add to the confusion. It is not so easy for those getting into computer audio to ignore this noise. Literal definitions and critiques of minor points of protocols may exacerbate their concerns.
It reminds me of the 'genius cafe' where the earnest advice is you need this or that to be assured of your home networking performance. Setting aside why a genius would be working in a shop, such advice may create and/or exacerbate the need.
The example given considers response time, throughput and capacity which for me are standard measures of 'performance' in a system prior to analogue conversion. If you look at it through this lens it suddenly becomes a lot less stressful.
I wasn't talking about your posts above but when I read them now you talk of network collisions, TCP limitations and so forth. It is possible a non-computer savvy person may read these, feel their challenge is harder than it is and sense their need for specific and/or new products is greater than it really is. Hence I feel it is worth retaining a balanced perspective on what is important.
Analysing the wrong things is where the mythology around the need for specific disk brands etc originates from. I am sure we both agree it is simply better to buy some more music than a RAID-configured Acme Trading Ltd Super-Dooper Checksumming 500TB SuperDisk or whatever.
Cheers
Mark
Posted on: 11 October 2012 by Marky Mark
Originally Posted by Shivoham:
In addition, it's not rocket science to get it to work. It's really plug and play. But to make it sound right...
Personally speaking, with the obvious networking basics ruled out I would tend to look more at quality of DSP, DAC (incl analogue stage) and pre-amp for sound quality than worry about hard disks etc.
I think you are saying your streamer has a very small cache. This is strange as my old ZP80 (approx value £50) caches up to 20 seconds ahead. That said, you may still be fine as the disk and network load is quite small as we've discussed above.
Posted on: 11 October 2012 by Noogle
Originally Posted by Shivoham:
I'll be damned!! It still sounds different from my PC, but the sound is now more spacious with a wider soundstage. No chance of an A/B test, suffice it to say I don't want to go back to the earlier mode.
I don't care that there's no redundancy.
It might be because I've got two 3TB disks, but 5400RPM ones. Maybe If I had 2 1TB but at 7200 RPM, things might have been different.
Totally accept that you hear a difference, but struggling to imagine what's going on that could make a difference.
The idea that the network interface in the streamer is generating more/less crosstalk into the analogue stage seems unlikely - since Naim put a lot of focus into isolating the two.
Posted on: 11 October 2012 by totemphile
Originally Posted by Marky Mark:
...
It is possible a non-computer savvy person may read these, feel their challenge is harder than it is and sense their need for specific and/or new products is greater than it really is. Hence I feel it is worth retaining a balanced perspective on what is important.
+100%
The whole discussion about WAV vs. FLAC, US vs. RipNAS or using dpPoweramp/XLD on a PC/Mac, what's better or sounds better is a side show. People coming to this forum wanting to get into streaming and seeking advice on what Naim boxes to go for read this stuff and will understandably be very confused about what to buy and not to buy. As a result quite a few people will simply buy the more expensive Naim solution thinking that way they are on the safe side, when other solutions would have suited them just as well, delivering on par sound quality to their ears for a lot less money.
Posted on: 11 October 2012 by MangoMonkey
Have you heard of the nocebo effect?
Or do you have to spend money to get an upgrade? A few clicks of the mousegave me a big improvement in sound. what's not to like?
My 'streamer' is the NDX. If I wanted to discuss the squeezebox or the sonos, i would be on a different forum. I'm hearing what I hear with the NDX/XPS-2/NaitXS/TotemArros. Synology NAS into a linksys router into the ndx.
Raid 0 helped a lot.
You can give that a try if you like.
Don't just say I didn't hear what I did.
Posted on: 11 October 2012 by Guido Fawkes
Originally Posted by totemphile:
Originally Posted by Marky Mark:
...
It is possible a non-computer savvy person may read these, feel their challenge is harder than it is and sense their need for specific and/or new products is greater than it really is. Hence I feel it is worth retaining a balanced perspective on what is important.
+100%
The whole discussion about WAV vs. FLAC, US vs. RipNAS or using dpPoweramp/XLD on a PC/Mac, what's better or sounds better is a side show. People coming to this forum wanting to get into streaming and seeking advice on what Naim boxes to go for read this stuff and will understandably be very confused about what to buy and not to buy. As a result quite a few people will simply buy the more expensive Naim solution thinking that way they are on the safe side, when other solutions would have suited them just as well, delivering on par sound quality to their ears for a lot less money.
True, but this is a forum - so it is only natural people will want to discuss things and some of those are quite technical.
The best advice has to be that if you are considering an expensive system for the first time then get a home demonstration so you can really find out if you like it. Also find out it where it is made, how long the manufacturer has been doing the rounds and how good the service is. Does it sound really good? Is it easy to operate? Will you enjoy using it? Does it look good in your cottage? Does it make you want to sing along to the hits .... 21st century schizoid man, dum, dum de dum da, da?
I don't feel that I can ever advise somebody on what system they should go for, although I can say what I would do with their budget .... there is lots of kit people around love and I simply don't like and I'm sure the same goes for some items I really like that they abhor {sabre-tooth DACs anybody].
I don't think it matters what you use for ripping and I don't think it matters what format you store files in AIFF, WAV, FLAC or ALAC ... however others do and have heard differences and put forward reasons why they think these differences are there. It's fascinating.
I would hope some advice we give is helpful, but many people (you often see letters in hi-fi mags) ask what will give me the better sound A or B. Quite often a hi-fi mag recommends something completely off the wall ... that you know if the poor dude buys from the evil bay shop will not last him more than 5 minutes and the never to be heard company will again dissolve in to oblivion leaving him with the obsolete and quite useless PRC Valve Monstrosity 1. At least, we are advising on one, if not the, best brand in the industry hereon.
So I'd say regard the forum as a chat room - not a consumer advisory. It is very informative and there are many posters who post about great music and interesting technology and if we are lucky the DJ Campbell and the Tractor Boys revival and march up the championship - stranger things have happened.
Posted on: 11 October 2012 by Bart
Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes:
I would hope some advice we give is helpful, but many people (you often see letters in hi-fi mags) ask what will give me the better sound A or B. Quite often a hi-fi mag recommends something completely off the wall ... that you know if the poor dude buys from the evil bay shop will not last him more than 5 minutes and the never to be heard company will again dissolve in to oblivion leaving him with the obsolete and quite useless PRC Valve Monstrosity 1. At least, we are advising on one, if not the, best brand in the industry hereon.
So I'd say regard the forum as a chat room - not a consumer advisory. It is very informative and there are many posters who post about great music and interesting technology and if we are lucky the DJ Campbell and the Tractor Boys revival and march up the championship - stranger things have happened.
G.F. I absolutely agree.
I also feel that when someone comes to the forum for such advice and states that they want a relatively turn-key approach to cd-less music replay because they are computer-phobic, the 'learn home networking and buy a Nas and run Asset on it' type of responses don't help much either.
We are fortunate that there are so many options.
Posted on: 11 October 2012 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Tractor Boys march up the championship .. Now that will be spectacular but unlikely :-(
Markey, I was responding to a query about collisions, I was being asked about how spot them with a view of possible impact to sound... Well of course you can't have collisions if you use switches. Also a TCPIP based transfer doesn't always guarantee no data loss.
Sometimes a bit of savvy is useful so you don't go chasing ghosts..There is sometimes misinformed incorrect technical statements made on this forum, and those in the know appear to sometimes ignore, i guess it would be rude and appear arrogant to keep correcting all the time.. But if asked a question I will for my part try and respond factually if I know the answer..
Simon
Posted on: 11 October 2012 by MangoMonkey
Originally Posted by Eargasm:
Shivoham, if your beliefs make you feel better about certain choices, good for you, but i bet you will feel even better if you got a better PSU.
Good day.
I've got a HiCapDR and a XPS-2. No more HiFi upgrades for the next 10 years...I might swap the nait xs with the Supernait when the supernait gets a refresh... or dunk the naitxs/hicapdr in favor of a Nait 5i-2.
but, converting to Raid 0 was free. And painless.
To your comments: how can you be so sure I'm just making shit up?
Looking at your profile, it looks like you're doing Optical Out from an airport express into an active system If you're streaming from a Mac, it's probably optimized to stream music and does things differently, where doing what I did a) isn't possible and b) probably wouldn't matter.
In the case of my synology nas and 2 3TB 5400RPM drives, it did.
Your stand seems to be: It shouldn't matter, so it does not. Sure, go on believing that if that's what you want to believe. But please cut it out with the condescending attitude.
Having said that, I do feel there is room for improvement. It really does suck that one has to muck around with fairly technical stuff to get it right. For someone who doesn't want to go the Unitiserv route, maybe sticking to a CD Player is indeed best.
Fewer things to go wrong. It's more likely you'll hear what NAIM intended.
Either that, or be a hobbyist and deal with the technology. Be very clear though, that the hobby is HiFi and not music.
For some perspective, I actually went from a 112 synology to a qnap back to the current synology I have. The ND5XS I had at that time seemed to really struggle with the lesser synology and the qnap. The music just didn't seem to flow as freely.
