Which wine are you drinking today?

Ditto!

I'll screenshot that onto my iPhone

Just sitting here in the Lake District, watching the rain hammering down and demolishing a bottle of this Amarone Valpolicella, courtesy of Waitrose, as I consume a pork chop seasoned with Fennel and accompanied by a peach, Gorgonzola and watercress salad with a ginger, lemon juice and honey dressing.

Obviously Mag's was cooking Tony, but a nice choice of wine to go with the meal. You two are so simpatico. Get it? 

Ssshh...... let's keep this one to ourselves and not run the source dry !!  Enjoy Peter

Schubert Block B 2008 Pinot Noir. Absolutely stunning accompanied by a medium rare T-Bone.

Too late Peter. Look who's also found out about this delicious wine....

What a fine fellow Steve, might send him my business card !  ATB Peter

Very pleased that you've found a wine that you like so much, and it's great that it's at such a good price. But wine at £5.85 is very much at the bottom end of the price spectrum. In hi-fi terms it would be akin to buying a Mastui stereo. I don't mean to pick on you, but -

here's why:

Retail Price £5.85

VAT (20%) -£1.16

Excise Duty -£2.00

(That's right, on a six quid bottle of wine, the govt gets half)

Retailer margin (20%) -£0.54

(This is very optimistic. The supermarkets expect to make 40% (30% on promotion). This in an online retailer, so their overheads are fewer, but nevertheless if they only make 20% gross margin, they won't be in business much longer.)

So, this leaves a maximum of £2.14 for the wine. Except, it doesn't really does it?

Bottle -£0.05

Capsule -£0.04

(more if screwcap)

Cork -£0.06

(if screwcap, glass costs more)

Label(s) -£0.04

(These are all the low estimates of the cheapest examples in bulk, neither of which looks especially likely in this case)

Common Customs Tarrif -£0.08

(for wine from outside the EU to get in)

Cardboard box (cost per bottle) -£0.02

(Monsieur Smurfit is a very wealthy man)

Pallet for shipping (cost per bottle) -£0.04

Shipping (cost per bottle) to the UK -£0.09

(varies enormously, but this is less than the likely figure from South Africa)

Importer or wholesaler's margin (7%) -£0.12

(Supermarkets have the manpower to source these things themselves, but otherwise there is a middleman.)

Shipping (cost per bottle) within the UK -£0.03

So, now our six pound bottle of wine actually costs £1.57.

It takes 1.2 kg of grapes to make 75cl of wine. Well, I say grapes. In fact, cheap wine will inevitably contain a fair amount of what the Australians rather charmingly refer to as 'mog' (material other than grapes), including sticks, leaves, mud, spiders, dormice etc.

Have a look in the greengrocer and see how much 1.2kg of grapes will cost you. 

But to turn it into wine takes quite a lot of equipment and manpower (and ideally expertise). A bottling line alone costs a quarter of a million. It also uses around two litres of water in various cleaning processes, and this costs a lot in most wine producing countries. 

That you've found something drinkable at this price is remarkable, that you like it can only mean that the people who made it have their backs to the wall and are seriously contemplating ripping out their vineyards in order to plant an orchard (which applies to many wine producers in South Africa, and elsewhere).

But the worst thing is that you are spending well ABOVE the average bottle price in the UK, which is currently £5.03. Most of the above costs are pretty-much fixed, meaning you are enjoying a delicious £1.57's worth of wine, while the average punter is tolerating about 60p's worth, and the bargain hunters are actually drinking stuff that tastes one above piss, probably because there is a reasonable chance of there actually being piss in it, and certainly just as much 'mog' as 'g'.

On the other hand, because most of the costs are roughly fixed, if you spend £10 on a bottle of wine, as much as £5 may have been spent on planting the land, growing and harvesting the grapes and crafting it into wine by people who know what they are doing, and care about it. As opposed to computer controlled manufacturing processes incapable of discerning stick from grape, churning out plonk with sugar left in to make it vaguely palatable, to fit some arbitary budget set by an uncaring retailer on the other side of the world who will double the price for 28 days in some far-flung outlet in the Highlands in order to pretend that they are selling it 'buy one get one free' subsequently nationwide. In the specific case of South Africa particularly, any wine for less than £4.99 UK retail will likely result in impoverished black workers being further exploited, usually by payment in alcohol, in a cod-slavery environment (only buy Fairtrade wine from SA if you can).

Cheap wine. False economy.

If you wouldn't dream of eating Tesco value sausages, drink more expensive wine proportionately less often. Better for you in every way.

But Rod.................

Its a bit like hifi. Home Demo is the only way. If it sounds nice to you it is nice.

Same with wine. If it tastes niceto you, it is nice.

Or words to that effect. Just ask George or Peter (The Swami)

Cheers

Don

What a depressing post Rod, thanks.

As big of a wine snob as I am, I never, and will never, tell people that the enjoyment they are getting from a wine is "false."  That's a level of snobbery that is unfounded.  IMHO, of course.

In the last two years I have bought only three bottles of wine.

Three, for me, rather expensive riojas for my fiftieth birthday. More than £10 each, and worth the doubling in cost over the bargain types for £4.99.

Since then I have given up on wine, as even this additional cost brings so much improvement, but it is too rich for me really!

As for replay, I reckon mine is relatively analogous to wine at several times £10 per bottle, but at least it goes for years, and is not just here today, gone tomorrow!

ATB from George

"False economy"

Surely it's down to enjoyment? In the passed we have had and really enjoyed bottles of red from French supermarkets with prices below £1 , mind we have had a lot of crap too. £10 ish is our normal "limit" after that diminishing returns on my admittedly limited tastings of more expensive wines, no point in paying £30-40 or more just to say it's that price when the wine is not being enjoyed.

Apparently there are even people who don't like wine at all.

Cars, Hifi, cameras more expensive doesn't mean better, may be more enjoyment maybe not.

What a bunch of sour grapes Rod ! Peter

Those that know me will tell you I drink rarely but I do like the occasional glass of wine. I do like good quality wines of various prices but I also live with a wife and two 20something siblings who like to have a daily glass of wine with their meals. I don't drink midweek. That is why a very pleasant wine at an affordable everyday price is something not to pass on. It's also useful to have when a few friends drop by. When we have guests for dinner then the finer wines come out. One bottle I am looking forward to opening is a 1970 Brunello Di Montalcino Argiano Riserva which was a present from a grateful friend and patient. This is punching way above my normal price line which is normally in the £10-£30 range.

What I love is drinking wine on holiday where I can enjoy a greater selection of wines at much better value. Recently in Spain I was drinking a lovely Albarino in a seafood restaurant cheaper than I could buy it from the wine merchants back home. No 400% mark up in Spanish restaurants and the taxes and transportation costs are less.

The cost of the wine mentioned above is normally £6.89 a bottle, so I wander if Rod would find it more 'palatable' now. But I don't give a sh*t anyway.

9 out of 10 cats prefer 'Mogg Wine' with the added essence of Dormouse!

on the other hand...

http://www.collegehumor.com/vi...second-cheapest-wine

A very palatable NZ Sauv Blanc, as served at the George & Dragon in Fitzrovia:

Rod,

Your expostion of how the price of a bottle of cheap wine is built up is enlightening and appreciated.

I guess that most of us here are simply guided by taste with little appreciation of any finer points. I know I am.

I normally buy a dozen different bottles of red at either Berry Bros or Waitrose, around about now and sample them over the next twelve weeks (bottle a week - a bit like Debs). I then buy a few dozen bottles of what I liked best to see me over Xmas and the first half of next year.

The selection usually covers the price range of £5 to £40 a bottle and I nearly always end up buying mostly at £12 a bottle with a few at the top end of my price range for special occasions. 

I have tried more expensive wines and can appreciate that some of them are more delightfull than my usual stock but, it often seems a bit hit and miss and really not worth the extra cost.

I do wonder just how much of the extra cost above 60p for wine in a £5 bottle is really down to quality and how much is down to "profit", especially when you are moving above £10 a bottle ?

Cheers

Don

Of course its down to enjoyment, and I didn't mean to be so preachy, I don't make wine, and I live and work in another country, I really don't care what other people like and I certainly don't care whether you "give a sh*t" or not. It makes no difference to me. But I work with, teach about, and love wine. I have many friends who make great wine but are being driven out of the UK market because to sell in it usually involves making a loss (on something). The once best place on earth to buy wine from a point of view of choice and value, is now a market dominated by the homogenised globobrands, who are the only companies capable of playing the supermarkets' tune. The supermarkets have a vested interest in keeping the average selling price at, or as near to, the cost of production as possible, because then only they, with their immense buying power, can afford to supply it.

If you wouldn't buy a cheap jumper from Matalan on the basis that its price reflected its quality, it wouldn't be a very good jumper, and wouldn't last long, then I believe, firmly, you would find reward in regarding the starting point for a bottle of wine as around ten quid. Half spent on the wine, half on the rest. The equivalent of, say, an M&S jumper. Of course it is possible to buy the equivalent of a limited edition designer jumper, made from alpaca wool or something, and sold in Harrods, but then you are paying for rarity and prestige. Wine that costs more than around £50 is priced simply because demand outstrips supply.

I really, really, don't think this is "snobbery". Someone who criticises a film is not a "film snob", someone who criticises cheap hi-fi is not a "hi-fi snob", the suffix seems uniquely to get applied in a throwaway fashion to wine. Anyone who actualy describes themselves as a wine-snob, probably knows next-to-nothing about the subject.

Of course you might reject the Matalan jumper on the basis that there is a chance it will have been made by someone deprived of their childhood in a sweatshop factory in an unsafe building in Asia. Although they themselves might be grateful for the job, the price the end-consumer is prepared to pay dictates such inhumane conditions. Fortunately - with the exception of South African wine at the very lowest level - wine producing countries (although it is a coincidence) seem to have good working labour laws. But buy Fairtrade from anywhere where you might have your doubts.

Maybe you buy wine just to get pissed, in which case it's surprising you're reading this thread, and in fact, in terms of ethanol-for-money, wine isn't and has never been your best bet.

Any drink is fleeting of course, and will be outlasted even by a Matalan jumper. But then so is a concert performance, and I'll wager most of us can see the point in paying extra for good ones of these.

People who - by virtue of reading a wine thread on the forum of an expensive high quality hi-fi manufacturer, are almost certainly wealthy (relatively), discerning and interested in wine - deserve to treat their palates and livers better than buying the vinous equivalent of the absolute cheapest available. You didn't know how good Naim was 'til you listened to it. The first £4.20 (roughly) of the cost of a bottle of wine in the UK goes on things unrelated to the liquid.

Rod your comparisons don't hold up. Of course a Matalan pullover will function as a pullover, as will a pullover of higher "quality". Nobody is claiming a cheap wine is better than expensive ones they are mearly saying they enjoy cheaper wines.

Same as someone with a NAIT can enjoy music as well as someone with a 500 system.

NAIT 5i £850

Cheapest integrated amplifier on Amazon £65

Don't think my comparison is at fault there.

Rod,

Don't worry about the precision of analagies. Yours were helpful. Somebody will always quibble about the analagy, and in so doing (probably) miss the real issue.

I find myself ignorant of the finer points of wine tasting and wine making. I have only watched a few TV programmes and find myself in the same parish as James May in my genearl inability to appreciate wine so have to fall back on tasteing a modest range and picking the one(s) I like. I once went on a short wine tasting tour in the Okanagan and picked up a few tips on how to improve the tasteing and enjoyment of wine, but it still boils down to the old "suck it and see" principle !!

Any way, as noted above my choice usually falls into the £10 - £40 a bottle range, heavily skewed towards the £10 end, so based on your assessment it encourages me to think I might be getting a half decent wine that tastes good without paying over the odds or running too much risk of polluting the old liver or nearby River Kennet.

Still, i'm also inclined to try Peter's recommendation at £5.85

Cheers

Don