NDS futureproof?

The NDS is software upgradable to some extent; there's already been one update.

The DR upgrade to the power supplies -- how many years did Naim offer power supplies before the recent upgrade? So many that many PS's wore out.  I'd say that wasn't unreasonable   (Despite those with Olive being upset that they cannot upgrade...I understand their disappointment.)

I am counting on changes coming to digital music technology, but that does not stop me from enjoying what I hear today, and tomorrow.  My view is that if I wait for a "futureproof" solution, I will be waiting forever and missing out on a lot of enjoyment in the meantime.  I cannot imagine my current system spontaneously stopping working when Naim releases something new.  Unless that latest software I installed has some nefarious backdoor!

I suspect that futureproof would depend on how far into the future you are looking, and what your needs/goals for network-based replay are.

99% of my digital listening is CD rips, 320kbps internet streaming services, and 24/88.2 needle drops. For those sources of music, the NDS is more than I will ever need.

I hear no benefits going beyond 24/88.2, so I simply do not care about 32 bit samples, or 176.4 and higher bit rates.  Perhaps when recording techniques improve, and are better able to take advantage of these higher playback specifications, then my opinion will change.  But for now and for the foreseeable, a well-mastered CD (and in many cases, a 320 kbps stream) sounds just fine to my ears.

Recall that Naim implements streaming on a separate daughter card, and that early network streamers and all-in-ones were upgradable to new cards supporting 24/192.  If some new format or resolution for network playback becomes very popular in the next few years, it would not surprise me to see Naim once again offer a similar upgrade program.

Hook

Of all Naims equipment the streaming products are probably the most likely to be superseded by new products or succumb to better technology as any computer based product is. I agree with Bart though, you can still enjoy what is offered at the moment and it will probably last at least 10 years.

By the way, my LP12 purchased in 1987 still offers the best source in my system . 

I don't believe that any computer-based product is futureproof. The very nature of the technology and its rapid evolution conspires heavily against this. Analogue technology is far more stable, and analogue based products, such as pre/power amps, will be good for decades to come.

This is why I personally favour the use of computer/DAC type solutions for digital replay as opposed to proprietry solutions like the Naim hard disc players/streamers. OK, any computer purchased today will be a museum piece within a very short time. But the point is that it will likely still provide a platform for running the required software, and media player software can be updated easily and some of it is even availble at no charge. When the computer itself does finally require replacement then it can be done far more cheaply than buying a new Naim hard disc player/streamer.

This is not Naim-bashing. I'm sure the Naim solutions are excellent in terms of performance, but they are hardly cheap, and one must bear their likely limited useful lifespan in mind unless one has very deep pockets.

Peter

I'd have to agree with Peter.

I don't think any streaming product at the moment is future-proofed - because no-one knows how this technology will develop over the next few years. SSD is likely to become more prevalant if prices fall, cloud services: Who Knows? and then there's SD slots etc, etc.

It seems only LP and CD are fixed in time and fairly acknowledged replay parameters at the moment.

It wasn't that long ago that Naim introduced a product and didn't update it for years. Now some are updated or replaced fairly frequently.

No-one knows how the long-term future of storage for music will go, but perhaps the best advice is still to find a system you like the sound of and buy as much music as possible for it. And enjoy.

The music and enjoyment will endure.

I think of the NDS primarily as a CD player.  The only difference is that the CDs have been converted to files, and are being delivered from a hard disk over a network.  There is no aspect of this process that will change significantly enough so as to render the NDS obsolete.  Now, it is true that UPnP has only been around since 2008, so it continues to evolve. The hope is that Naim is committed to tracking significant changes, and keeping the NDS current through firmware updates.  But even if they don't, even if Naim all of a sudden decides to abandon the owners of its network players, the NDS, by virtue of its digital inputs, will not become useless...it will simply become a DAC, and a very good one at that.

IMO, a lot of this concern over future proofing is overblown. For example, WAV has been a standard since 1991, and nobody is racing to throw it out and start over. FLAC encoding has been around since 2001.  In both these cases, the development communities have binary compatibility as a primary goal going forward.  Nobody is going to tell us that we have to do mass conversion of our existing files in order to stay current, nor will any newly created wav or flac file require new software or hardware to play it.  The only recent development of something entirely new came from Apple (ALAC in 2004), but to their credit, they also support AIFF (which predates even WAV, going back to 1988). These formats have been around a long time, and they are going to be around for a long time.

What would render the NDS obsolete is Naim, or some other manufacturer, figuring out how to deliver comparable sound quality at a much lower price point. IMO, that is inevitable, but it is really hard to predict how long it will take.  At my age, I feel that the bigger risk is waiting too long, and not getting the chance to enjoy digital replay at this high level...while I can. Others, of course, will have different priorities.

Hook

PS - I agree with Dr. Steve about vinyl. It remains my #1 source, and will continue to be so even after I have moved to the NDS.  But...a 24/88.2 needle drop played back on an NDS will be a very satisfying listen! 

Jon, your advice to "enjoy" is spot on!

Hook did a nice job of breaking down the elements that go into a system, and pointing out that landscape changes to them have not been happening at a frantic pace.  File formats and the upnp protocol are used extensively throughout the industry, and have been for quite a few years now.  Today's hi res download business is still in its infancy and I am willing to "bet" that it will not be supplanted by something incompatible any time soon.

Many changes have brought down some of the prices and made things more convenient.  SSD's are much more affordable, but they do not render any mission-critical element obsolete.  And the already-common practice of separating storage from playback (the NDS does not have any internal storage) ensures that one can upgrade their storage (be it ssd's, cloud-based, etc.) in a way invisible to the player.

SD slots vs. usb slots?  Not game-changing imho.  Home-based systems aren't very dependent on portable media anyway; portable storage is just a surrogate for networked storage.

Ultimately we all place our bets, and we are fortunate there are so many options.  Not owning any vinyl started me off down a path that did not include acquiring vinyl.  And I won't rehash my love of being freed from a living-room full of cd's

It depends whether you constantly require to be at some market-led cutting edge of facilities or happy to have bought something which plays what you have at the highest quality.

Most of your high quality music is going to be at CD quality.

Given many people's attitude to stealing and sharing digital music it would be a dope who made available studio quality tracks of music anyone actually wanted.

I have recently used my outdated AV2 as a DAC for a (faintly revolting) ROKU, Some things go out of date and become obsolete, others fall behind the dernier cri yet manage to function perfectly well - and for many years.

As Bart writes - SSD, Cloud and any manner of wankery don't necessarily mean any of your playback devices are obsolete - just that you may need to introduce a new interface to pass the digital stream to them.

Thanks everyone for high quality answers. 

I have no problem to agree in the statement of enjoying music. Also as Adam says about facilities, my focus is not there, I prefer to enjoy musical replay. Simple as that.

I´m a simple person and user, wan`ting to plug it in and hopefully it should serve me for many years. (my last source until retirement?) Therefore I just wonder if it`s prepared to follows changes (based on what we know about the technology today) without being set aside? I guess the answer is yes, but limited because we don`t know what will come.

I see some people recommend using computer/ Dac until further, but in some way I think that would be like waiting for another new release, and they will come...and come.

I expect hardware replacements and of course software ditto the next coming years, but if I can fear using NDS as a Dac in about 10 years, makes me skeptical. I guess one cannot expect Naim giving any guaranties.

S

> Is the NDS future-proof

No ... I would never buy it thinking it is ... the reason to buy it is because you like it and have lots of things to play on it. I'm sure Naim will service it and as it sounds good now, it'll not sound worse in 10 years time. Is the CD555 obsolete? It will still play CDs exceptionally well. Is you amp future proof? What happens when Naim brings out the 552 replacement? 

I can't see how the NDS could support DSD or some other possible new formats ... only devices that are semi-future proof are those that avoid DAC chips and use Field Programmable Gate Arrays to create virtual DACs in software .. of course they may be future proof, but do they sound as good as the NDS? Even the manufacturers of those devices seem to retire them and bring out even better replacements.  

Perhaps Naim could do a hardware change if a left field format appears that everybody suddenly switches to. 

Is my LP12 future proof ... well perhaps, perhaps not ... still like it though. 

No product, digital or analogue, can be said to be truly futureproof. But we need to be clear about exactly what this means.

Everything will eventually be superseded by something better - that is progress and there is no stopping it. Just because an excellent product is replaced in the future with something better does not mean that product becomes any less enjoyable than the day it was purchased. This is certainly the case with analogue products such as amps. Many people are still thoroughly enjoying CB 32/250's etc - a pre/power combination long since "improved" upon.

The problem as I see it with digital products like the Naim streamers is not that they will become any less enjoyable to listen to when they are superseded by more capable products, but that the actual digital technology is changing so rapidly that in say five to ten years time they may simply be so out-dated that they will no longer work. Fine if you only want to play an existing collection of music files, but what if you want to purchase new downloads or stream from internet services that these products can no longer support?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Naim are in any way at fault by offering these products, and yes one can buy them now and enjoy them now. It is a personal judgement. My view is that I would be extremely unhappy about spending a large sum of money on something that I strongly suspected would have such a short useful life. In my view five to ten years (and ten is probably being very optimistic indeed) is an unacceptably short useful product life.

Others may feel differently and be prepared to spend large amounts to buy replacements from Naim as and when necessary. No problem with that at all. As I say, it's a personal judgement.

Peter

In the consumer world almost by definition nothing is... but Isuspect the NDS along with its other ND players will be around 5 years or so, before a NDS2 or equivalent appears.

Does this mean the NDS/NDX insert what ever product you want in here - stops working? No of course not - but it won't be new anymore and something newer, shinier etc will be there to tempt you.

As I say its the way of the world.....

But my valve circa early 1950s reel to reel still works quite well - though I suspect it could do with a recap. Mind you the audio connectors used back then are certainly obsolete now..

Simon

Simon,

This is my point. It may well stop working, because it may well no longer work with new developments in the digital world ie. file types, downloads, internet radio etc etc. Sure it will continue to play exisiting compatible files that you already have, but that's hardly satisfactory.

That's the difference with your old reel-to-reel.  It will still play new tapes because nobody has invented a new incompatible tape format that has replaced everything else. As I said, analogue technology is comparitively very stable.

Peter

Peter - ok but the file types such as WAV and AIFF have been around since the mid to late 80s, and some of the codecs used in web radio from the late 90s, so I don't think they will all dry up within a few years.

As said before if a new main stream fileformat appears then its new software for the streamer board - or worst case a new streamer board itself if you want that new file format - otherwise you carry on with the tradiotnal file formats.

My 1998 Rio PMP300 mp3 player still plays mp3 files created today as well it did 15 years ago - but it hasn't a clue about AAC, FLAC, WMA etc. - bit it still works for MP3..

So probably some foramts will come and go and others will have greater longevity. Given how entrenched WAV and MP3 are in industrial systems (let alone consumer)  I can't see them disappearing anytime soon.

Simon

I don`t mean to be NDS negative. In fact, I do ask because I`m close to or considering to purchase one. I have to turn every stone since it`s cost is not negligible. For me it counts that I can be as sure as possible that it will last a while. If it makes music I will find out on friday, auditions arranged.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. Makes me think NDS purchase is as safe as it can be within this technology. A computer/ dac solution may well be safer, but in ten years I will still think the same since technology goes on?

S

If you can afford it then buy it and enjoy it. Technology moves on but you're going to get years of use out of this and its a very upgradeable machine too with its power supply options and ability to add an external DAC. As with the other Naim streaming products, the streamer board is separate from the audio boards so there is nothing stopping Naim offering a new streamer board in the future if streaming protocols / data rates change significantly. 

I went through this debate, and in the end, to be slightly morbid, who knows what is around the corner.

The NDS is THE best digital source I've heard, and although I'm sure something may come out to replace it in let's say worst case 5 years, even that would equate to what, £100/mth? £3/day to have an awesome music player in my front room - and what's more one that the whole family can enjoy now that it finally has playlists.

I placed my order today :-)

To me, the worst it could possibly get is that some hypothetical new digital file formats, bit rates or resolutions are unsupported. You'll just have to convert them. Computers are great at  doing that sort of thing. You may lose a bit of "quality" in the process. If you think that there is significant SQ improvement above the top bit-rate and resolution that the NDS can play now, then you have much better ears than I do.

I'm with Adam when he contends that studio master quality files are unlikely to become widespread. I wouldn't give "future proof" another thought if the NDS and streaming is the way you want to go.

Me, I don't think streaming in general is yet mature enough for me to bother. I'm sure that the whole she-bang will get more stable and approach true "Plug'n'Play" one day. This isn't the NDS's issue, though. The whole NAS/network/twonky mess just has to be tidied up so that the NDS gets what it wants reliably without the user having to be some sort of a computer genius to sort it out.

If we look back to 2002 the formats used then were wav and mp3, so what has changed here?

Setting up upnp systems with a streamer can be very challengingand that is I believe for many the important concern about streaming.

The servers solve that problem, but they have a shorter life since the computer parts that is inside the servers will be hard to replace in 5 years time, since it is basically a standard computer motherboard  of course tweaked heavily.

The only problem in terms of hardware I can think of with Naim is the inability to update the 400 mb disks in the first generation hdx and servers to 1 and 2 tb disks.

Dsd seems to be a big thing, but with the way the record industry ignores highres files, I do not lose sleep fearing that all highres files suddenly will be in a format the current Naim hardware does not support.

Claus

Hi Claus -

Let's presume that DSD takes off and becomes the next big thing. And let's say that some artist releases music only as a DSD download. NDS owners will not be left out in the cold because DSD is very easily converted to WAV or FLAC. 

I bought a Korg DSD recorder to archive my vinyl collection, and have built a library of 5.6Mb .dsf files (2x the resolution used for making SACD's). The recorder has analog outputs so I can connect it to my Naim preamp and listen to them. They sound wonderful.  But then, so do the corresponding 24/88.2 FLAC files I made using Korg's AudioGate conversion software.  Korg's white paper makes the claim that DSD is a great format for archiving precisely because of how easy the math is for converting the 1-bit format to PCM (and thus enabling universal playback).

I have concluded the same thing about high resolution DSD as I did about PCM (beyond 24/88.2) -- I just can't hear enough of difference to bother with it.  I'll keep recording using the Korg (and I am not going to throw the raw DSD files in the trash), but the 24/88.2 FLAC conversions are what I'll continue listening to.

All simply my opinion of course!

Hook

That's what I thought until I bought this:-

To say that I am disappointed and furious would be a lie.

You need a Lenco L75 - I can play this!

I believe you feel the same way about newspapers.