NDS futureproof?

Yesterday, I was auditioning Naim streamers. I got to listen to a bare ND5XS, compared to bare CDX2. The cdp sounded insightsful as I know it, but also very mechanical and cold compared to the streamer.

Then a bare NDX and finally NDS/ XPS2.

I have read people can´t hear any difference between XS and NDX. IMO there´s a huge difference, where NDX gives a small taste of what NDS is capable of. Clearer, more powerful, a delight.

NDS/ XPS is just a wonderful music machine. I cannot put words to it. Just music in a very natural way. 

S

Hmmm.. regarding DSD and SACD.

I had my first DSD capable A/D and D/A converters (dCS 95x series pro units) sometime back in the late nineties and had few other pro units since then, made hundreds of DSD recordings, digitized Lps etc. But I definitely think the present DSD hype is just too much. I just had a chance to play with an MSB Tech UMT native SACD (DSD)  capable transport and a matching MSBPlatinum SIgnature DAC IV with native DSD decoding capability using its special pro i2S connection called pro network, and I just did not feel the hype justified. My experience was not depending of the system as such, I felt the same with using the MSB set with 552/500 and S600 or using the MSB Transport / Dac to drive a Parasound JC1 amp and a Focal Grande Utopia.

So I do not think DSD will have a big effect on the majority of the music lovers or on the industry.

Erm - we can update the 400Gb drives in the early servers to the latest 1 and 2Tb specs...

Phil

+1 , i made several test last week (nDac, Nd5xs and NDX).....and order the NDX.

At home since saturday....lovely ..very capable ...and it's a cold machine ;-)

hello ferenc

do you think that it will not be the case that some new music is DSD only .... my concern is not with the relative quality, but with availability .... I don't want to be denied access to a new album because it is DSD ... it is no different from being denied access because I have no way to pay the artist for his new album .... I only buy digital music at all because I can't always get reliable vinyl copies of albums I like to listen to. 

however, if you are saying dsd music will always be available in pcm then I'm happy .... as my Naim DAC can play it ... 

all the best, Guy 

Like always ... it is down to the audition and it has be the way ... can't understand people buying of the basis of a review or an opinion (especially my opinion ... I would, of course, recommend a transport in to the Naim DAC over the NDX, but that is just a view). So really glad you have found what works best for you.

All the best, Guy.  

Hi Guy,

I would be very much surprised if music distribution on DSD would be something really relevant in the future. it is a niche product at the moment and can be like this for the foreseeable future. If you have a DSD only recording you can download the free of charge (you need twitter registration only for FOC) Audiogate software from Korg and can convert the DSD to highres PCM without any serious damage to the original DSD recording. It is very much possible that a DSD converted PCM track on an NDS/555PS or a nDAC/555PS can sound better in a complete Naim system than any native DSD capable (not - Naim) DAC in the same full Naim system playing the original DSD file...

+1.  I agree completely with Ferenc's post. 

IMO, there is one thing that might change the landscape ever so slightly:  SACD ripping.  Right now, if you want to extract the DSD digital stream from your SACD's, you need an old model PS3 plus you need to compile an obscure SACD ripping "game". 

If Sony/Philips were to announce PC ripping software tomorrow, and made it super easy to rip the DSD from SACD's, then all of a sudden those 7000+ titles could be added to the much smaller list of available DSD downloads.

Would this make DSD more than just a niche product?  I don't think so.  But I do think this might give the DSD format some staying power, making it more viable as a longer-term option.  While the numbers of people still buying SACD's is relatively small, you need only to look at sa-cd.net to see how passionate they are!

Hook

PS - This is not to be confused with converting SACD to PCM in order to capture the bitstream.  As reported previously by Aleg on this forum, it is comparatively easy to output this converted PCM via HDMI (using an Oppo or similar universal player), run that output into a splitter, and capture the PCM via the splitter's S/PDIF output.  Searching the forum archives will provide details on this method for those who are interested.

I was reading an article about the development and birth of SACD and DVD-A yesterday in one of the comics. When the aims and specification for SACD were listed, the first and most important items on the list (the first three IIRC) surrounded copyright and piracy. The format was driven by paranoia and control. Of course you don't want your stuff pirated. Of course you don't want your income and royalties depleted by illegal practice. But the industry has always started from the same point - attacking and demonising their loyal customer base. 

I don't hold out any hope for a more sane and open approach from the people who accuse us of all being criminals.

Harry -- well said!  What might amaze some of those people in the "industry" is that I buy more cd's now than ever, only to rip them and box them up in my attic.  Buying cd's and replaying digitally are not mutually exclusive, but that surely is too subtle for the "industry."

My first exposure to this attitude was "Home Taping Is Killing Music". I don't copy material for further distribution. I don't lend out music and I don't rip a CD then sell it. Maybe that puts people like us in a pious minority? I know a few professional musicians and do a bit of work for some of them from time to time.For the most part their opinions and experiences of "the labels" don't come close to my low opinion of them - theirs are much lower! It seems that the harder we all work and the more we spend  the more it's our fault.

Moan over.

Hi Harry -

i think you hit on the key point -- we are a small minority.  We treasure music, we respect artists, and so we don't post rips on share sites, nor do we download our music for free from such sites.  But almost everyone under 30 that I have talked to about music does exactly that..and they don't even think of it as piracy.  It's become akin to jaywalking -- oh sure, it is illegal, but everyone does it and nobody is ever caught or fined.

On the one hand, I am glad to see the domination of music by a few, large mega-labels coming to an end.  Barriers to publishing are crumbling.  Groups like Radiohead are selling music directly.  Others are selling through more boutique sites with high value add (I think that Burning Shed is a good example).  A few years back, I was concerned that we were heading in a direction where all financial incentives would disappear from producing music, and that we would have fewer, not more choices.  Funny, but it now feels like quite the opposite is happening, and my biggest worry now is having enough time to explore and enjoy what's out there!

ATB.

Hook

Thanks ferenc 

I guess as long as I can convert to PCM then no issue ... I think the Audirvarna player can now play DSD on my Mac and output PCM over S/PDIF to my Naim DAC so if becomes an issue that is one way. If the Korg software runs on a Mac then that's another way. I wondered if Sony might push the format through its CBS label. 

All the best, Guy 

I haven`t found what`s best for me yet. I just say that for me NDX was far superior to ND5XS and again NDS was another world to NDX (bare). I didn`t compare the Dac to any of them, but I know the dac well from earlier experience.

About futureproof I cannot follow all the technical terms, but I seem quite convinced that NDS is futureproof enough to me.

Thank you all for the comments you have put into. this.

Stover

Hi Ferenc,

does the Audiogate software accept as input DSD iso files, or only .dff files ?

or do you know of a way to mount a DSD image within windows ?

I can confirm that Foobar DSD decoding is not that great ...

many thanks

Stefano

To be honest I never tried DSD ISOs with AudioGate, as I have only our own DSD recordings and used AudioGate only on Mac.

Hi Stephano -

According to the manual, Korg's Audiogate only supports DSD files, of which there are three types:

1) .dff -- introduced by Philips in 2000

2) .wsd -- introduced by the 1‐bit‐Audio‐Consortium in 2002 (composed mostly of Japanese companies)

3) .dsf -- introduced by Sony in 2005. This format is very similar to .dff, but has more flexibility for including meta data.  As a result, this has become the most widely used format.  So-called "DSD Discs" are .dsf files recorded on DVD's, and are playable on Sony PC's and Playstation, as well as several brands of SACD players.  

Hook

with the below you can extract the single DSD audio files from the iso to dsf or dff format, and then use Korg's Audiogate to convert to WAV or FLAC.

http://code.google.com/p/sacd-ripper/

Assuming, as I mentioned above, that you have an old model Playstation 3.

Just to confirm that the Korg Audiogate app converts much better than Foobar, SQ wise.

You just have to be careful with the Gain setting as DSD normally has a greater dynamic range and the app clips the audio when it gets too high in the dB range; the user guide says that -3dB is the average setting to prevent clipping, but I have found that it's best to verify with a few song from each album first, as you can also play them and see their dB range before converting.

Great app !