Playback uPnP Issues

Last summer when I purchased the Ultra 2 version of Netgear NAS it was on sale for $175 and Phil is correct in saying you can get less expensive version of NAS to do same job.

RaceTripper, I hope you enjoy the new tonearm and phono preamp.

 Was trying to be helpful in your streaming issue and avoid windows pc.

I had few issues at first with streaming but found solution on Netgear forum.  Being patient works out in long run.

Dan

@RaceTripper

I think that if you really love analogue then your Naim streamer has been living on borrowed time for a while. You are quite correct in thinking that the Mac OS has very few decent UPnP server programs but that will change with time. I don't get any of the issues on my test version of Minimserver - in fact considering I'm running it wirelessly it functions very well indeed. 

I think if you were still serious about using your streamer - Plex would work very well - or you could start where I did over two years ago and use an old Macbook Pro as a Vortexbox - interestingly it uses MiniDLNA to stream to UPnP devices, a forked version of readyDLNA which was used by readyNAS. 

Tog

OK - just to be *VERY* clear here - this is *NOT* an issue with the ND5XS not working very well with the Mac - it's that the UPnP servers that you have tried do not allow that functionality that you deem essential.

You've found solutions that do work but you've actively refused them because they don't fit your Mac-centric ethos and that's fine if that's what's important to you.

Now, the reason I may appear to be labouring this point is that in the future when Mac software has (hopefully) moved on and Asset UPnP is fully tested and released on OSX I don't want people doing random Googling, ending up here and taking - incorrectly - that Naim kit doesn't work with Macs.

The problem you have is very simply that the UPnP servers you are prepared to accept in your computing environment don't offer the functionality that you want and the ones that do what you want (and you have yourself found them as you've listed them and said that they do what you want) you are excluding.

I too hope you enjoy your new tonearm and phono stage...

Phil

I don't have those installed anywhere but do both Plex and VortexBox give the folder browsing and "Play from this track" functionality that RT needs?

Cheers

Phil

Actually Phil - MinimServer 0.64 works well on a Mac already - and development seems quick.

Tog

Phil - I can browse folders using Minim or Vortexbox but I don't get the "play this track option"- I can just navigate and play. To be honest I'm not entirely sure what additional level of functionality RC is looking for or for that matter why it might be useful. 

Tog

He's saying that he has to have the "Play from this track" option - however you can just play the album and skip to the track you wish to play from. Unfortunately he only gets that option on Asset or JRiver on the PC (which he can't use in his setup) and not on any of the Mac UPnP servers and that appears to be a biggie for him so it sounds like these also may not do the job he wants...

Phil

Phil,

Please tell me how to integrate my ND5 with Mac OS X and to get it working so playback doesn't stop after one track, because so far everything I've heard has been to state I need one of:

1) a Windows computer (I don't want one, nor want to buy one)

2) a Naim server (very expensive)

3) a NAS (OK, maybe)

4) Windows software that exists as Mac versions only in feature incomplete alpha/beta versions (doesn't work for me, Asset doesn't have the folder browsing feature, JRiver is very unstable and crashes constantly).

If I am out of line to say my ND5 does not integrate well with OS X, please explain that to me and you will have my apology and utmost respect. However, at the moment the best I can do is that the ND5 plays a single track at a time and quits. I listen to classical so that is an unacceptable option (I might want to listen to an opera or choral work with dozens of tracks). Otherwise, respect my preference for analog and willingness to abandon a Naim digital device that isn't working for me.

The ND5 does integrate with Mac in one respect. I can connect the optical output Airport Express to the ND5. That works great. I don't have to worry about UPnP, nor the missing "Play from this track" feature in n-Stream since I use Apple player software instead. However, I can forget about playing all my high resolution 24 bit FLAC files. But it works a treat for my wife to play MP3s from her iPhone. That is pretty flat and lifeless, but it's something.

I listen to classical music (jazz too, but not digital source). I have all of it organized hierarchically in folders by Genre->Composer-> Album. I want to navigate that file structure. All I want is for that to work so that when I browse that with n-Stream, I can drill into a folder, select a track, and select "Play from this track" so that it starts with that track and plays to the end of the album of tracks in that folder. That is not what I get.

Without the "Play from this track option" when I click play on a track it plays that one track and nothing else. I tried Minim and it works no better than Playback. I can play one track at a time.

Hi RT,

I'm not sure whether you're just playing devils advocate here or what but you've provided all the information to answer this yourself ... let's look at the facts.

1) Your overriding concern here appears to be that you don't get the "Play from track" option on any of the UPnP servers that you have tried that are on the Mac.

2) You do get that option on the Windows versions of Asset and JRiver but you are excluding those as you won't have a Windows machine in your network.

3) You do get the option on the NetGear ReadyNAS (both Duo and Pro versions) but you are excluding those for whatever reasons. (Personally I would *NEVER* use a general purpose "house" computer for any kind of server duties so for me running a UPnP server either on a dedicated computer or NAS would be the norm.)

4) You seem happy to use an Airport Express with your ND5XS to get AirPlay which (at the moment) converts everything to 44.1kHz via a sample rate converter and offers no support for high resolution audio.

So you *KNOW* that it's an issue with the specific UPnP servers that you will accept - not with the UPnP renderer *OR* the Mac platform specifically.

It would seem that simply playing the album and skipping to the track you require is unacceptable, as is adding the tracks of the album to the play queue and playing from the track that you want to listen to - both would give you the functionality that you wish to have.

You ask me to respect your preference for analogue audio (which I think is clear to everyone here from your posts) and I do so - I have very specifically stated that I wish you all the best with your new tonearm and phono stage - and I think that in that case it is only fair that I also ask for similar respect in acknowledging that the issue that you have with your ND5XS is very easily resolved (as you have found for yourself) by using a UPnP *SERVER* (on whatever platform) that provides the functionality that you require.

Very Best Regards

Phil

Play from track works for me but then I use the ITunes library integration on playback. I've never had any problems with UPnP and Macs but then I don't have a large classical music collection and use iTunes for my library management.

RT - you may want to look at the Linn streamers. They certainly seem to be compatible with a wider range of UPnP servers and control points which may give you exactly what you need.

I know I'm being dreadfully dense but why go to [folders] why not just navigate to Artists> Album and play from the track you want. Seems a bit of an odd way of using nStream - but perhaps that is just me.

However, I have tried [folder view] in Minim 0.64 and it will play more than one track in sequence - I'm not building playlists just playing albums.

by the way Phil, my Uniti won't make coffee and my dealer promised that I could use my favourite Mac expresso brand as well. You need to fix your software - I need to stream coffee.

Tog

RT,

This is just meant to help - so don't shoot me - though I do see you are frustrated with posts telling you to use an architecure you don't want...

Anyway, from you last post you seem to be open to the possibility of using a NAS. I would strongly urge you to try this route. I have an NDX and a QNAP NAS (but I'm sure there are many others that are as good). It runs Linux, and I'm finding the Logitech Media Server UPnP a great solution. Certainly I have "Play from here" (as well as simply "Play" at the top of the page when viewing an album to play the whole album) - this running nStream on either an iPhone 4S or iPad mini.

With this setup I use the NAS for other things too (like docs and photo backup) but you can simply use it for your music.

It supports 24/192 too should that (ever) matter.

The NAS is set to wake and sleep automatically at approriate times - I honestly feel this is the neatest solution and I'd really rather not be having to boot a computer, Mac or PC, to act as a server.

Phil,

I was only half serious, and half sarcastic. With the iTunes/Airplay integration my wife can play all her iTunes purchased content. I cannot play my high resolution FLAC files. In case you aren't aware, Apple does not support FLAC audio at all, and if I convert my FLAC, it gets down-sampled by Airplay, etc. 

If I get an NAS it will also have to support the Logitech Media Server so I can continue using my SBT as well.

Dean

I am not using iTunes integration with Playback. If I use that, n-Stream works right. I am using folder sharing with Playback since a large portion of my library is in formats and resolution Apple doesn't support.

I asked my dealer a while back about the Linn streamers, because I heard before they work better with OS X. My dealer stopped carrying Linn due to reliability problems. Given that my digital playback is less than 10% of my music listening, I won't sell one expensive streamer to get another.

I wish Logitech still made the SBT. I would just get one of those and another Arcam DAC and use that. problem solved. I may still move my office SBT/DAC in place of the ND5 and get something else for the office.

Heh, I feel like I'm the one being shot at.

I am considering a NAS. I look at QNAP and Synology a long time ago, but never pulled the trigger on one. Which QNAP do you have?

Tog,

I listen to classical (well, jazz too but not so much on digital). I don't listen to it by artist, I choose something first by composer, then a selected work or set of works (i.e. an album of tracks in a folder). I might have multiple albums of the same work by different performers (e.g. I have 3 albums of Bach's Brandenburg Concertos)

The tags for classical music are hopelessly flawed, wrong, missing, in the wrong place. You name it, it's screwed up with classical. To fix it and make it usable will take substantial editing using a sophisticated tagging editor like JRiver. That's just going to be too much work for me. I just want to enjoy music to R&R after work, not make it a second job.

There are tags for composer, but for me that is also a problem. I listen to a lot of early music, and have albums that are a compilation from many composers. Selectiing a tag that would list composer (or artists) just gives me an overwhelming amount of choices. In many cases, it's the whole album I want to play, which is not by any one artist or composer.

So I organize and play my digital music like I organize and play my LP collection. I organize my digital music into folders Genre->Composer->Album. In some cases I subcategorize, for example:

     Baroque->Bach, Johann Sebastian->Sacred Music->Mattäus Passion

I have tried doing this by tags, and it just too messed up for classical. Many others have bemoaned the state of tagging for classical music and what an utter disaster it is. As it is, even when I purchase digital downloads and rip CDs I have to fix a lot of the basic info. The folder organization I have works extremely well for me. The tags work poorly. There is no reason for me to play using tags. They don't bring anything to the table that is useful for how I listen to classical, and they add complexity I don't need nor want. No doubt they are fantastic for popular music and probably jazz. For classical they just get in the way.

So I have my digital music organized and tagged by how I listen to music. Unfortunately, the combination of UPnP on OS X and n-Stream 3.2 just doesn't work very well. I think Phil takes that somewhat personally as me criticizing Naim. I'm not doing that intentionally. I have a 282/250 and absolutely love it. It's the most fantastic playback system I've ever had, and about as good as I've heard within reasonable cost. As for my ND5XS, it isn't working for me. I really don't care why or who's fault it is. Maybe it's just plain not the right device for me.

I'll try Minim again. When I tried it yesterday, it had the same problem for me as Playback. Maybe I missed something.

You might be better off with Sonata as a music server designed for classical music. However, I think it is Windows only so you you might need to use bootcamp or vitualbox to run it on a mac.

Tog

I restarted Minim again, and you are right. It doesn't present any play option in n-Stream, it just starts playing. That works for me. Simpler.

Are you getting cover art showing in n-Stream? I am not. There is also some funny indenting going on. But these are minor and don't affect being able to play music.

There is an issue with nStream artwork - cured by 0.64 which the author kindly let me test but hasn't been released yet. If you PM in the forum I'm sure he would let you have a copy. I'm using Bliss to automate file organization / tagging / correct artwork - brilliant program.

The transcoding options are excellent - flac to wav24 works best to my ears.

Very impressed so far and it has a whole range of tagging/navigation option that I've yet to try but which you migh find useful.

Tog

Right, Sonata is customization of JRiver Media Server. It is Windows only. 

If digital playback was the majority of my listening that would certainly be something to consider. 

Thanks. I can wait for the next release. The artwork issue isn't pressing, just annoying.

I'll need to study the features to see how best to sort it out for my use.

I am waiting for 0.64 release as I do not get any artwork at all with the 0.63 version.

In the past I have tried JRiver Media on pc as music server and also tried Amarra om mac book air but like the Naim ND5 XS with NAS unit as I can leave all computers in home turned off and player music collected ripped in wav file and Naim piece in stereo rack looks like a piece of stereo equipment. Also liked option of adding power supply to ND5 XS to improve sound quality.

If I was not going to use a NAS unit, I use Bryston BDP-1 or BDP-2 digital player connected bnc to bnc connection of Naim ND5 XS with SSD drives connected directly to Bryston digital player.  It is expensive way to avoid Mac or PC as music server.

Dan

The NAS is still a possibility, but probably unnecessary now if Minim works out. Eliminating the ND5 in favor of analog upgrades is still on the table too.

I have had plans for a second Mac Mini to use for OSX Server for various things. Once I get that I will likely park my music storage there (FW800 4TB RAID 0) with Minim (or whatever I find works best) running. 

For the price of that Bryston, I could likely get a secondhand US, but I won't put more money like that into digital, at least not in the near term. In retrospect I already spent more than I needed to.

For me Vortexbox running on a bespoke server - works flawlessly - easy admin via web - excellent backup.

Tog