Audioquest Cat7 cables

I'm not paranoid....it was a joke related to the question posed in the quote I highlighted.

I'm completely with you on this one.....thanks for the fulsome response though.  G

Hi Guido,

Your theory is interesting but I suspect you would have to abandon it if you tested it by listening. Ethernet cables can definitely affect the sound. The question is, can they make enough positive difference to justify paying for premium cables. The answer that can only determined by trying them. 

Keith

Originally Posted by Jonas Olofsson:

       

Guido, your answer makes no sense. I learned +20 years ago when I worked in a serious Hi-Fi shop that more stuff makes a real difference to the sound then you could expect.

Just because you dont know what you are talking about dosent mean its Snake Oil which is an easy way out when you basicly dont know what you are talking about. As I stated in the first post: Im only intrested in responses from people here who actually TRIED the cables for them selves, not some internet experts who knows all in theori but havent listened.

So have you tried some of these cables or not?

//Jonas

       

If you need a reason why expensive cables exist... this is it. A fool and his money etc....

Hello everyone, flying visit

As opposed to just a fool...

As the original poster asked "has anybody actually listened to and compared Audioquest Cat7 to ordinary Cat5?". So far two posters, KRM and Harry have, and both purchased the product. In a well thought out and setup hi fi system EVERYTHING has an impact on the final result. I'm old enough to remember the arguments over whether spikes under speakers, speaker cables, green pens on cd's or equipment racks made any difference/improvement. We now acknowledge that some of these things as standard hi fi practices, so lets approach this Cat7 product with an open mind and more importantly, open ears. 

Cheers

Ricky.

Some people call themself scientist or following a scientific approach, and then only look for confirmation of their ideas!! 

Better to look what's happening in the real world.

I've lived long enough and spent far too much money on music systems in the process to believe nobody's ears but mine. If something works for you then fine. If it doesn't, this doesn't automatically mean that it will not work in another pair of ears, a room or a  system. 

All speaker cables sound essentially the same. Oh I wish. That would make life so easy.

A properly specified and built mains cable doesn't have to be made out of fancy materials because there is nothing more to e gained. When the PL came along my thoughts turned to fools and money. Although I never called anyone a fool for buying one. Then I borrowed one.

Naim don't make or recommend fancy interconnects costing hundreds. What's in the box is more than you'll ever need and this is supported by theories and measurements that are older than most of us. Then the HL appeared. That wasn't such a leap of faith for me because I'd been using Chord and then Harmonic Tech interconnects for years but again, just because I thought they made a difference....

Off board DACs are bad practice. They don't work properly. Well, I didn't actually go with this despite the reams of evidence because I had a two box CDP in the 80s and 90s and it sounded twice as good as the single box option. It became moot when I moved to Naim CDPs  because I was enjoying the presentation so much. Then look what happened.

What about those green pens that some of us painted our CD edges with? I've still got one, although since a CD5 turned up some 12 years ago it didn't make a difference any more.

Bits are bits. The cable they travel down can't possibly effect their quality or the order in which they turn up at the Dig In. I believed this and the vast stack of supporting data and theory confirmed it. As it turned out, this sacred cow was particularly easy to blow out of the water. 

And now we're on ethernet cables. Of course they don't make a difference. How can they? All you have to do is listen. Maybe they don't make a difference? This call comes down to the judgement of the individual. It has been suggested to me that that if these cables can change the music there must be something wrong with my set up. Well, all I can say is there's nothing wrong with it now.

I don't see the need for such name calling. It detracts from the flow of conversation and well intended banter. I can take a good poke in the ribs. At the end of the day it doesn't matter because I can sit in my lounge and hear where my time and effort went. Nevertheless, it can tend towards grating when people who have never heard it on home audition call me a fool. The conviction with which we believe something does not make it universal fact. 

I personally think the 250.2 is a bit pants and the 282 is nothing to get excited about. What I think of the 200 is worse still. Does this mean others are stupid to buy them? Of course it doesn't. Well, not to me. Why should it? To adopt such a position is to entirely miss the point.

I tried the entry level AQ ethernet cable, between my Vortexbox and router.

I refused to believe it, but I heard a difference with my regular Cat6 cable.

Am afraid I don't have a technical explanation for this.

Will try other models in the AQ range...

It must be "The year of the Cat.... 7" 

I can describe in minute technical detail why it won't make a difference (have a look back at some of my posts if you care), but you would claim that science doesn't know everything and that some, as yet undiscovered, phenomena is happening. I won't be able to dissuade you from that viewpoint.

I can go and try the cables out and report back here - and if I didn't hear a difference, it would be either because my system isn't setup correctly or because I was prejudiced against hearing a difference. The explanation that there actually is no difference would be dismissed. If I did hear a difference I'd be looking at (very) poor equipment design being the problem and certainly not trying to fix it with vastly overpriced Ethernet cables.

So, we are down to two things. Either you hear a difference because your hi-fi is so badly designed /setup that it does make an audible difference or it is a placebo. Neither explanation will be palatable to you as it is an affront to your personal values, so you invent a third explanation which is a religious answer and from which you cannot be moved, because it takes faith. 

People make a lot of money from other peoples faith - just look at the God channels in the USA. In this case, it is either the expensive hi-fi manufacturer or the expensive cable manufacturer. Your money, your choice, believe what you will, but I still think this is a case of a fool and his money are easily parted. It's simply my view. You may not like it, but I am entitled to it.

Perhaps time to close the thread once God has been invoked in a discussion of Ethernet cables.

Either that or wait for the Archbishop to chime in.

I have had a listen to a number of notionally "HiFi" Ethernet cables as well as some basic "bulk-bought" Ethernet cables and a few "home-brewed-this-sounds-fantastic" Ethernet cables and - as yet - remain to be convinced that not only are there differences but that the "differences" are universal - i.e. that a cable which is perceived to have an influence in one system have that same influence in all systems and also that a cable which is perceived to have no influence in one system similarly has no influence in all systems.

I have certainly had issues in networks which have subsequently been found to have mixtures of shielded and unsheilded cabling used in them where the shielded runs have not been "port-to-port" continuous but that's not the same as saying that a cable has a specific sonic signature.

...but I have to say that when I see claims of directionality on an Ethernet cable then it does kinda send alarm bells ringing for me.

Cheers

Phil

Recall a trainee in a place I worked years back. The boss told him to hold one end of an ethernet cable in the air so the data did not fall out the end. He eventually complained his arm was hurting. How we laughed

Anyhow, just a thought on the target market for these hi-fi ethernet cables.

any cable depends upon the quality of conductor/insulation ,the quality of the connector ,mechanical/electrical.  cheap freebies may have issues .  quality cables don't really cost much anyway

A true scientist tries to falsify his hypotheses and not only collect material or other theories in support.

so an empirical approach to gather information should be encouraged, and not being discouraged by some head-in-the-sand pseudo scientist.

This is sinking fast.

To the OP. I've tried 'em. I like 'em. I've bought some.

If you can get some on loan to listen to I believe it will be worth the effort.

You'll either end up with a bit more music or money remaining in your pocket. Useful either way.

I'm outta here.

Another strange reply ... you obviously don't understand how digital transmission works. The snake oil companies do prey on folks that don't ... as you are delivering music data in to a buffer it makes no difference how it got there. Whether I send you a CD by first class or second class posts makes no odds. As long as the cable isn't faulty it will make no difference. A cheap cable can introduce RFI which Simon has explained many times how you can solve.

Just because you worked in a hi-fi shop doesn't make you an expert in digital media transmission - I'm no expert either, but no people who are and when I asked if a magic Ethernet cable could effect SQ they thought it was wind up. 20+ years ago I would guess Ethernet was not on the agenda. Digital transmission works quite differently from analogue - error checking and buffering 

Yes I have a lots of Ethernet cables ... from work, some designed very ruggedly to work in difficult conditions - and they make no difference to sound quality. 

So yes if you want a very well made good looking cable then fine, but it'll still do the same as any other Ethernet cable that works properly. Cat 5e from Maplin is absolutely fine. 

I wouldn't read this response if I were you, as you say you are not interested. I just don't want you to waste your money, but it is up to you.  

All the best, Guy 

So, to summarise Guido's post, no he hasn't tried these cables and doesn't need to because he knows some people who told him that magic Ethernet cables don't work :-/

Entertaining thread, this. However, it's beginning to look like the two camps ("just listen" vs. "I don't need to because I already know") will have to agree to disagree :-(

Keith

I have to agree with Guido. Digital data transmission over ethernet either works or it doesn't, and the ethernet and internet protocols -- not fancy, snake oil cable -- take care of error-correction and retransmission to ensure data integrity. As long as Naim did their job with the imbedded NIC and you use spec conforming cable, there is no reason to spend extra money on fancy networking cables. I paid $13.00 + shipping from monoprice.com for 100' of Cat6 cable. It's works perfectly well, and is no better or worse than a 16' Cat7 cable I used previously.

I'd love to know what Naim uses in their labs. I'll bet it's standard off the shelf ethernet cable.

Technically Ethernet data transmission is definitely not  a case of it just works which is why you have link level and transport level protocols.. There are degrees of effective data transmission.

However that is quite different from Ethernet patch leads which are all about pulsed analogue signal transmission. 

Ethernet UTP patch leads are specced upto a 100 metres. At these distances the analogue signal can degrade and be interpreted falsely. Also cross talk increases with length and frequency which can cause a corruption at the link level..

But in our domestic streaming products we use much shorter lengths and TCP, which is a highly robust transport level that irons out all these analogue issues to provide a nice digital payload.

So in the end different patch leads sounding different is all about managing the interference from the pulsed Ethernet analogue signals. Ie coupling imbalances and RFI. Its nothing to do with the digital payload unless you are using metallic coated shoe laces for a patch lead.

Simon

Yes, well said:  it's not about the bits, but about the rest of electrical connection.

-

Aleg

Keith

Probably better to say I confirmed with experts in the field that it couldn't make any difference .... if we accept the truth of certain physical laws then ... well lets assume we both accept the basic axioms underlying Euclidean geometry then as a result of the parallel postulate, the angles of a triangle sum to 180 degrees (if you don't believe me you can engage an expert). I haven't personally measured every triangle to confirm this, but I feel confident in saying that if I read an advert for a triangle that gives me an extra 5 degrees then it is snake oil.

What we are dealing with here is digital vs analogue. Digital is easily measured and controlled and within the networking world irrespective of the application, the TCP/IP protocol assures that the correct data goes from the sending IP to to the receiving IP for the Transmission Control Protocol. Moreover, Naim uses a buffer so all that is happening is data from place is going to a virtual transport in another. So nothing really musical is going on at this stage. 

A bit like getting a CD off the shelf and loading it into physical transport ... the dexterity with which this achieved is irrelevant. 

The bits played by the Naim DAC are from its buffer and delivery over Ethernet unless there is a fault will be consistent. This technology has existed since the 70s and if delivery wasn't consistency there would a catastrophe across computer networks. 

So what is there to worry about with an Ethernet cable .... well it should be well made and not have loose connectors, it should meet the Ethernet specification ... yes a copper cable can pick up RFI and optical would be better in this respect, but chokes will solve this issue for copper cable if it really is problematic in your installation. 

So that is it ... it is like the magic ripper discussion ... there is no such thing .... 

If you don't believe me that is entirely up to you - keep drawing the triangles and searching for the one with angles that add up to 185 degrees ....

Yes when you change things in a system the sound may change ... indeed the sound will change slight even if you don't change anything ... unless you live a lead lined controlled environment, of course. 

Phil said earlier nothing was consistent and I'm sure he and his colleagues at Naim have wired everything in the best possible way to show off their very fine systems - given they want you to experience sound so good you wiant to buy the the kit then they are unlikely to miss a trick 

So which bits of this do you believe in respect of an Ethernet cable

Solid conductors eliminate strand-interaction distortion and reduce jitter. 

Solid High-Density Polyethylene Insulation ensures critical signal-pair geometry while minimizing insulation-induced phase distortion.

Metal and Carbon-Loaded synthetics prevent most RFI from reaching the equipment’s ground plane.

Precision-made low-loss ultra-wide bandwidth connectors with 100% shield coverage and strain relief.

All audio cables are directional. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every audio cable. Arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For best results have the arrow pointing in the direction of the flow of music. For example, NAS to Router, Router to Network Player.

So yes there are two camps as explained by APC magazine, which is just a click away

But Aleg 

The manufacturer clearly says it is about the bits ... and the magic properties it introduces - that is why I cry snake oil ... a bit like the TQ USB cable and its abilities with narrow bits ... 

These manufacturers are trying to convince the convincible of some extraordinary break through ... when there is none. 

All the best, Guy 

Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

Technically Ethernet data transmission is....

Well.. nearly right, but...

Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

So in the end different patch leads sounding different is all about managing the interference from the pulsed Ethernet analogue signals. Ie coupling imbalances and RFI.

Which would mean you should be looking at the router supplying the signal first rather than the interconnect - don't forget the audiophile principle of GIGO!

£1000+ audiophile routers... I see a business opportunity

Fear not Andy ... I'm having my switch cryogenically treated ... so what's this audiophile router you are bringing out ....