2013 F1 Championship.

Vettel = racer. Rosberg = employee. The only thing going against SB was his mealy mouthed performance post race. " I was faster. I could win. I took it and I won". Would have been more appropriate. Nico should have followed his example.

But at least it does give the media something to feast on and be indignant about for the next three weeks. Gotta sell those papers.

The thing with the fuelling was that teamks didnt know how much each car had, so the racing was more focussed on the track, due to the uncertainty of the strategies.

plus it was great to see the action / flare ups !

Talk to Pirelli about that.

LOL...that has cheered me up good and proper!

Great, I'm glad you mentioned it to your friend, but I understand the company-line dynamic.  Looking back at my short, somewhat terse reply, I just wanted to clarify that my "dig" was at Pirelli, not your comment.  I really think that Pirelli has purposefully taken an inappropriate overweight of influence in F1 with their new tire tricks.

Webber is said to be "Considering his position in the team." Given that he has been in the best car for several seasons and still not won the Championship, if leaves Red Bull he never will. I doubt he could anyway, he isn't good enough. Sure, he'll win a few races but if he leaves RB, basically he's finished in F1. If he's honest with himself, he knows that. This could well be his last season in F1.

steve

Bring back refueling? Yes why not the racing was soo much more exciting, sprint car specials, almost any designer can make a car deal with about 30-40 litres at a time carry 100+ for a full race takes a bit more skill.

....and accepting once and for all he's # 2 and that his backside will resemble a Clown's Pocket.

Love it!

Oh boy - that "...AND THEN I TOLD HIM..." sums it up perfectly.

Watson had it right yesterday - minimum one race ban imposed on Vettel by Red Bull.  I fear if they don't do something meaningful there will be several occasions in the coming races where Red Bull carbon fragments will be causing punctures for the other drivers as Webber seeks his own kind of justice.

Peter

Sadly all this seems to be true. After all he once was the next wonder boy after Jenson Button who was lucky enough to have his moment of glory but I am afraid it is never going to happen to Mark. Even if he miraculously somehow manages to get a drive for next season he will be far too old to win by then. It is like David Coulthard a fast driver who is broken by even better team mate.

very funny James !

Strictly speaking Weber's problem is not with the team, it is with Vettel. the team issued instructions (rightly or wrongly) that would have allowed Webber to win.

If the team punish Vettel in some way (such as a suspension) thay are hobbling their better driver. If they don't what is Webber going to do? Strike?

It has occurred to me that watching on TV one has the radio traffic available and can understand when team orders etc have been issued. The paying spectators get nothing like that so presumably feel even more cheated of open and honest racing.

F1 never seems to care much about spectators though, does it.

Bruce

Many people seem to be under the illusion that the most important championship in F1 is the Drivers Championship. It isn't. it is the Constructors Championship.

That is where a very large part of the teams income comes from, where they finish in the Constructors Championship. And why even a 12th place at one race can change the income amongst the non scoring teams at the end of the season.

After all, the teams are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to put these cars on the grid. Each car is allowed the use of 8 engines, for 19 race weekends, before receiving penalties. The team allowed the drivers to race to the final scheduled pit stop, and then told the drivers to turn down the engines and bring the cars home. That is playing the long game, to ensure the engine reliability for later in the season, as well as not risking having to make a late stop in the current race for another set of tyres.

There are no slow drivers on the grid. Anybody who doubts that needs to be taken round a race track with a decent club standard racer. Then think of the step up to National standard, and International standard, before even thinking about the standard of the drivers in GP2, Indy or F1.

Some drivers have an edge over others on the grid, but the margins are smaller than most think.

As for tyres, Pirelli are supplying a tyre that is doing its job, and providing a bit of interest as teams have to balance how much they stress them vs how long a set will last. The teams will very quickly settle on a strategy that they will feel gives the right balance for them. 

It is very easy for a tyre manufacturer to make a tyre that will last the whole race, but gives little grip. Or tyres that generate so much grip that cornering speeds become so extreme that no car can stay close behind, and so overtaking becomes next to impossible. As tyres got so grippy, then grooved slicks were introduced to reduce cornering speeds. And peopled moaned that it was ruining racing.

You almost have to wonder what is in it for a tyre manufacturer. Think of the massive costs that Pirelli incur for the pleasure. And then people attack them. Was it so much better when there were multiple suppliers? Indianapolis 2005 ring any bells? Or the rancour incurred when a tyre manufacturer customised the tyre to suit one car rather than balancing the needs of all the teams it supplies.

Someone needs to give Vettel a slap, and point out who pays the hundreds of millions of dollars for the toys he gets to play with, and when he is told that the job is done and not to break it, he does as he is told.

Apologies are absolutely worthless, and the only censure that will drive the point home, not just to Vettel, but to any future Red Bull driver, that the team is in charge is to keep him out of the car for a minimum of one race. Anything else and I expect Vettel to think he can do what he likes, and for Webber not to yield next time, and there will be a huge accident.

And the same people will moan at how silly it is to see so called team-mates to crash into each other.

If a driver wants a team to be all about him, then get a contract that states that (and your team-mate knows it, such as Irvine, Barichello and Massa at Ferrari) or go and take your personal sponsors and build a new team. There are spaces on the grid for at least 4 more cars.

John

Well put John,  I am not disagreeing – but maybe another aspect to consider that does slightly disagree with ..........  the most important championship in F1 is the Drivers’ Championship. It isn't. it is the Constructors Championship.

F1 cannot survive in its present form without sponsorship - huge multi-million sponsorship. So why does a sponsor spend this level of cash on an F1 team, what do they plan to get out of it, it’s not for free, it’s always with a plan to get a return on investment (ROI) thru advertising, product placement & market share.  So maybe a better question is what is more bankable in terms of ROI, the car or the driver.

My proposition is that it might be that a photogenic driver sells more bank accounts or cell phones or TV contracts or cans of sugar pop to more consumer types – male female age etc - than does a F1 car or team.

If the driver does not win his team does not score as well in the Drivers Championship & sponsorship gets reduced & the ability of the team to compete next season is reduced & the better drivers are not attracted to a 2nd div team ………. Self-perpetuating success or destruction.

John

Good stuff all but your perspective would appear to be that of a team owner/constructor not a fan of the 'sport'.

From where I sit I want to see racing where merit is rewarded, as is courage and intelligence too; but crucially from the drivers not the team principle.

I don't personally get as big a kick out of seeing races controlled from the pit lane, or by mechanical or rule contrivances.

I have no doubt Pirelli are doing exactly what has been asked of them i.e. bringing in a variable to inject excitement and unpredictability. It just seems a false way to do it.

Bruce

If you are talking about RBR the sponsor is also the team owner.

Have been watching this thread (and one or two others elsewhere on the subject) and somewhat bemused to see the level of ire directed at Vettel - he didn't "cheat" - it's an internal team thing.  I really cannot understand how a driver who disobeys team orders is guilty of robbing fans of racing - isn't it the case that team orders rob the fans of racing?  Didn't Vettel actually provide a proper shown of racing? (Though of course Webber has a valid complaint against him - and if the team doesn't punish Vettel then Weber has a valid complaint against the team.)

The response just seems to demonstrate that lots of people hate Vettel and this gives them a good excuse to slag him off... though that does assume to some extent (which may be a false assumption) that the team didn't force Webber to drive too cautiously thereby giving Vettel the chance to catch up artificially

Re the tyres, my understanding is that Pirelli have been specifically requested to engineer tyres that do last only a certain time

Re the team v constructor championship - i would have thought that it is a tiny proportion of viewers that would remember who won the constructor championship in almost any year (I know I don't), with the driver's championship being far more important to spectators.  However, from the teams' perspective the constructor championship is massively more important, as John highlights, with revenues from FIA (??) being heavily dependent on results

Drivers Championship about personalities (or lack of)

Constructors Championship is about lucre , filthy or otherwise.

Fans generally follow drivers, or sometimes teams.

Do any of you really think that all F1 in the past was "genuine" racing?

A different take on last W/E GP:-

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/...-probe-2013032663802

F1 survives as a spectacle (it is not a sport), as much as any other because fans are prepared to pay to watch it either at the track or on pay TV.

When the paying public get fed up enough of how cynically they are being cheated, they will walk away and F1 will become a minority interest and disappear up its various corporate arses.

What other sport would be allowed by its governing body to fix the results so blatantly?

Even the F1 cheats can't cheat properly.

I guess many might disagree Derry but some of your points have a certain ring of truth about them

I would argue however that motor racing & bull fighting are sports & the other stuff is just games.