Wagner's operas

It is strange but Schubert expresses more human emotion in a three minute song than any Wagner opera in three hours, and yet Wagner remains admired. To save my time - singing in German not being my bag - if I occasionally want sung German, I listen to Schubert.

ATB from George

PS: A bonus that Nazis and ex-Nazis did not make the best Schubert performances ...

Nice exchange

Until now, I also never summoned the courage to listen to a full performance.... I'll try it on January first. Thanks for the suggestion.

EJ.

Thanks for your great write ups!

I don't quite get Wagner yet but I am going to see Esa-Pekka Salonen conducting CSO ( not the full one but the highlight ) to see if a live performance might give me some clues.

I'm not familiar with this tune at all so that's why I asked.

So I am starting with a clean white sheet. 

Will pick up a few and report back. 

George, apart from the nazi comment, not everybody would agree with you. Including me - Schubert wrote great songs but his operas failed on all levels (check out Fierrabras in case of doubt), whereas Wagner is dripping with emotion if you let it touch you. I think he did human emotion better than anyone else. The price of entry to Wagner is rather steeper than Schubert, but I found the investment worthwhile. 

As to the nazi comment - Daniel Barenboim, Wolfgang Sawallisch, James Levine, Jeffrey Tate as well as a whole host of international and German singers can and have put that association behind them in the interest of the music. Nobody should feel guilty of supporting socialist nationalist ideals if  they love listening to Wagner or Strauss.

Well, just my two cents - I'm not on a mission to convert.

All the best,

EJ

But Tate, Barenboim, Sawalisch and so on are minoes in the Wagner pool, and even Solti is a raw amateur compared to such luminaries as Furtwangler, Karajan, Krauss, Bohm, and Knappertsbusch. Only the Jew, Klemperer seems to straddle greatness in Wagner and not being a Nazi.

I have to say that there is enough family history for me ever to detest Adolf Hitler's favourite composer, and yes Schubert never wrote a great opera, but he wrote the greatest collection of German songs ever, and I maintain that the Erlkonig has more in it than the whole of Parsifal, which is possessed of acres of dull music, a couple of memorable themes and as Furtwangler observed, no substance, but a great and sustained shiny surface.

Deeply horrible music however you look at it.

ATB from George

I didn't think Rosamunde was that bad, but I know nothing...:-/

The Rosemunde Overture is lovely, but there is a good reason why the opera of that name and other Schubert Operas [strictly the Rosemunde Overture was originally the Magic Harp Overture] were not revived in the 20th. Century whereas the then unknown Mozart acts of genius [except Don Giovanni, which never left] were revived whilst Schubert was ignored in the Opera house ...

Wagner was political in the worst sense right from the start. Fortunately some German musicians including Brahms saw this and opposed it ... Wagner was even exiled within Germany ...

ATB from George

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eweNfeaztoY

I used to look forward to the overture when it opened a concert!

As one who really doesn't belong in this conversation because I've only ever dabbled at the surface of classical music, I have to say that I can't hear Wagner without it conjuring-up black and white images of goosestepping Nazis.  Unfortunately for Wagner fans, that's the unjust legacy Hitler left him.  Maybe that's because I'm a baby boomer and maybe future generations won't make that association.

During the late 1980s I bought CDs of Beethoven's and Mozart's symphonies that were conducted by Herbert von Karajan primarily for the emotion he was able to convey.  My zest for buying music conducted by Karajan was tempered once I learned of his association with the Nazi party.  But, whose to know what skeletons exist in whose closet?  

EJ, thanks for an informative and interesting writeup.  It is all very encouraging and I have recently decided and intended to use the upcoming year to learn more about Wagner, a composer I know relatively little about, and look forward to more write-ups from your learned point of view and experience.  After-all, this is the Music Room where we can and should freely discuss at will about ALL MUSIC.

Cheers,

Doug

I managed to get yesterday a copy of the "Tristan und Isolde" recorded live in Buenos Aires in 1971. The recording is in mono, total time 3:29:41. Conductor was Horst Stein, lead singers Birgit Nilsson and Jon Vickers.

Unfortunately, the small booklet does not say if Adolph Hitler was attending in person or if he was represented.

I am listening to this opera for the first time. My first impression is that I am listening to the soundtrack of some old Hollywood movie. This is not unpleasant at all and I am enjoying it so far, but I feel I am missing the picture.

I am wondering if I should not instead opt to watch a DVD of this opera. Which actually brings a more general question: is the opera not meant to be watched, rather than listened?

Originally Posted by Alamanka:

Alamanka,

A historic performance - Vickers' debut as Tristan and the first time he sang the role opposite Nilsson. I don't think there is a video from this performance but they have been taped on video together in 1973 and 1974.

Cheers,

EJ

EJ,

Who's the conductor? 

Looks like Böhm?

BW, this is coming. 

Indeed, Karl Böhm. For the paychecks that would have been handed out for this performance, you wonder why they didn't bring in a better camera and sound man... but so be it. Cool cover, by the way. I have the original on vinyl, issued as part of Philips' first complete Wagner-from-Bayreuth edition in the 60s. As I do the Karajan Ring. But no record player

EJ

Thanks EJ.

From the YouTube video, I like Böhm's direction so looking forward to listening to it.

Also, I am gonna try to get the Lenny's set on vinyl.

George

Richard Wagner was exiled from Germany following his involvement in the May 1848 Dresden failed uprising. He was then a socialist influenced by philosophers like Ludwig Feuerbach and Mikhail Bakunin.

The guy was a romantic artist with very confused and incoherent political ideas.  The picture of Richard Wagner as a Nazi is cartoon  prejudice, not history.

George,

Sorry - you're painting a very black-and-white picture, mostly black. I'm not about to debate the man with you save to say that his writing was plentiful, confusing, and often contradictory. Much of it is available on the web, for free, google 'wagner library' if you're interested.

Whatever image appears, fact is that Wagner throughout his life entertained close friendships with a number of jewish people, including Hermann Levi who conducted the first performance of - of all operas - Parsifal. Parsifal, Wagner's "walk to the cross" was never accepted by the nazis, by the way - not compliant with their ideology.

As far as his music being grandiose, impersonal, massive and brutal or even neo-classical: I would say that only 'massive' is an adjective that fits, and then only sometimes: Wagner did employ a dense musical language. He was seldom grandiose (there is some in the end of Meistersinger - nicely discussed by Wolfgang Sawallisch in his essay on recording the opera for EMI - but hardly anywhere else). Otherwise, I would say the music is personal and romantic. Most of his mature works are full of characters with genuine personality, usually with both good and bad traits, whose temptations prevent them reaching an idealistic goal.

Take for example the ride of valkyries - you could say bombastic emptiness, but it's actually a properly dramatic introduction to the last act of Walküre where Brünhilde is hidden by her sisters from her angry father, Wotan, because she saved the life of a hero against his wishes. What follows is some of the most heartfelt, sincere and moving father-daughter music ever written. 

Once you know the music well, my counter opinion is that if it connects - music is personal - it's hard to listen without affection.

Best regards,

EJ

The Ride of Valkyries:

For me, Buggs Bunny left a stronger effect on Wagner's music. :/

What's opera, Doc?

Yep. They've put in all the Opera cliche in this episode.

Chuck Jones at his best. 

George,

Why is it that every time someone tries to discuss Wagner you come in with the same old spoiler about how much you detest him(which we have all heard a thousand times before). Can't you let people discuss Wagner in peace?

Sister xx

The cartoon is hilarious.

For the record, I finished today listening to the 3thrd act of Tristan und Isolde. 

So far it did not click, but I will see with the next one and a more current performance.

Dear George

It is quite unfortunate hat, due to pure prejudice; you refuse to enjoy one of the major nineteenth century composers, and one or the most influential. You should forget the propaganda and just listen. Start with the Wesendonck-Lieder  that are truly marvelous.

Last fall we had in Paris a wonderful Tristan conducted by Mikko Franck with Ninna Stemme as Isolde and Sarah Connolly as Brangäne. You have to listen to it live to realize how great this music is. Last spring Sarah Connolly was Ariodante in Versailles. She is an amazing singer.

I personally do not care at all about composer’s personal lives (many where obnoxious, childish, selfish womanizers) and political opinions. I don’t care that Sergei Prokofiev came back in USSR at the worst time and was used by Stalin propaganda.

You may not agree with this, dear alainbil:

You wrote:

I don’t care that Sergei Prokofiev came back in USSR at the worst time and was used by Stalin propaganda.

Well I do care about the human qualities of musicians, literary people, composers, artists in general, and others in more public life as well. As it goes I am more acquainted with the music of Wagner than I wish. I know the Wesendonck Lieder set, and I don't enjoy them, though I have a recording of them for all that. My first encounter with them was in a live concert, and as I knew the soprano, I was persuaded to persist with the music and buy a recording. That was nearly thirty years ago! I quite like the first tune in the Meistersinger Overture. Otherwise I cannot think of two notes of music in a row that I enjoy from Wagner.

On the other hand how far would a composer have to go in terms of being horrible so that you could never enjoy his compositional output? Rapist, murderer, pederast, or mere racist?

I know that quite a few composers had character traits that were hardly kindly, but there were composers who were actually genuinely and naturally as kind as any other kindly human beings!

I tend to find the music of these musicians actually contains the goodness of the authors!

ATB from George

In 1590 Carlo Gesualdo murdered his wife and her lover and carried their mutilated bodies in front of his palace. He wrote delicious madrigals.