Is Audirvana worth the effort?

Yes is my answer to your main question. It uses Izotope which is just about the best rendering engine around ... And it plays entirely from memory ... And it gets the sample rate right ... And it hogs the interface for musical use ... And it rocks (oh that's a bit subjective) ... And it works with iTunes. 

However, on a new Mac no way do I agree a MF V-Link is better than a Supernova 6 optical cable. I have both and would not go back to the V-Link. The V-Link is better than a Chord plastic Optical cable, but the Supernova 6 is different class. The V-Link is OK, but nothing great IMHO.

However, i recently was able to try a Stello U3 and was impressed and it the first time i have found a device of this nature I really felt made an improvement over the Supernova 6.

Thanks Guy. I can't reallly use Audirvana in it's integer or direct modes through optical so if I wanted to use it I might just have to get something like the Stello you suggest.

Willie, may I know how do you know integer or direct mode is not working through optical?

You can only use integebr mode with a USB interface. You can still check the box in Audrivana, but it is not using Integer mode with Supernova 6 ... At least the little indicator light is not on. Switching to the V-Link seems to solve this. However, the Supernova 6 still sounds better to me. I think the improvement using the Stello was because it supports Integer mode and is probably better made in other respects than My V-Link. However, Bit Perfect on Snow Leopard seems to support Integer mode over S/PDIF through Core Audio. All very confusing, but Snow Leopard supports Integer mode natively and Apple decided to axe this feature.

Totally unscientific, i know, but of the ways I have tried i believe that the Mac Mini with AV+ using the Stello U3 into my Naim DAC is the best SQ I have achieved. However, iTunes/BP/Supernova 6 runs it very close. And now we have a new entrant in J River ... 

Upside is all these sound better my CDX2 so it all bodes very well. 

I originally tried AV+ to play some DSD files I had .... That sounded very good ... It played then as 24 bit PCM in to my naim DAC. I don't have A DSD DAC to try. 

Hi again. Just got home and re-read this thread. Guy, I take from what you say that you've found that Audirvana is worthwhile even  without the USB connection ( ie without the ability to use direct or integer mode ) and that using it in optical with a Supernova 6 is better than using it in direct or integer with the V-link and really unless I was going to get a Stello U3, I'd be better sticking with the plain mode in Audirvana and using the Supernova.

If I kept away from the USB solution, I would be restricted to 24/96 with optical. I'm assuming you reckon that the higher res files wouldn't be compensating enough to make a positive difference unless using a Stello 3. 

Did I get this right?

If I got the Stello 3 would I simply plug one end into my mac and the other into the digital in on my S/nait? What sort of cable would I need to buy for that? I'm assuming I'd have a Toslink at the S/nait end but what about the other. Any recommendations as to brand and type?

Thanks again in advance and sorry for all the questions

Willie

Here's my observations:   I have an old (circa 2008) powerbook running Audirvana through a Halide bridge (like the v-link, its USB > SPDIF) into an NDAC. It won't work in integer mode, but this is an issue with that era mac USB and the Hi Face. As you say, a bit confusing.  Would like to get a decent optical cable to try. I also have a newer mac, but haven't had the time to do all the comparisons.

It sounds very nice, but a bit laid back.  My CD5xs > NDAC sounds better in my opinion, though its a much different presentation, and hard to assess "better".  High Res content sounds very very good, and more similar the CD > DAC.

It sounds better than iTunes, but my funimental issues with iTunes is that my music library is too large to fit on the old powerbook, and itunes is hard to manage, and has lags, from an NAS.

JRiver in theory seems as if it manages network drives better. I find it very clunky how Audirvana spoofs itunes to run from a network drive -  you need to load new tracks into itunes as links.  If you add a new track to the NAS, you then need to add to iTunes. For this reason alone, I'd wait to make an investment until we can try our Jriver mac beta in a few weeks.

Thanks Guy for your clarification on integer mode. 

Like Willie, I would keen to know what sort of connection you prefer when using Stello U3 converter? I see it does not support optical out and hence, my guess is coax RCA cable is the only option to connect to nDAC? 

From my understanding is even the integer mode is not functioning on Supernova 6 in AV+ but  the fact it uses Izotope engine (instead the Apple Core Audio) makes it worthwhile to consider, yes? I'm on AV+ trial period and intend to switch from BP using Supernova 6.

I have made a comparison of swapping BP & AV+ on same 24/96 track, my take is AV+ sounds slightly more details, airy and yet smoother than BP. These positive traits are certainly very encouraging and will continue to carry out further listening.

With add-in softwares it seems to be very subjective and in the ear of the beholder, especially if you happen to have highly tuned audiophile ears. I'm recycling an older post here but anyway -

After coming to the end of a trial period of Audirvana Plus (2 days ago) and some extensive A/B listening against iTunes using lossless CD rips, the results are that :

Audirvana can sometimes sound a bit more organic, natural and less digital.

iTunes can sometimes sound more engaging, vibrant and entertaining.

Audirvana and iTunes will more often sound exactly the same as each other

At the most I can tell the improvement by having just replaced a Chord Optichord with Wireworld Supernova 6 going out of a MacBook Pro (yr 2011 version) and for the moment iTunes + BitPerfect sound ranges between good to quite good, in relation to a CD player transporting into a naim DAC. For what I'm doing though this is alright since the CD player into naim DAC is remaining as the top level source for majority of listening time, followed by MacBook

Then again if making a MacBook the top level source in the coming months there is something called TC Electronic Impact Twin FireWire to SPDIF that a forum member seems to be using. It has the added functionality of guitar interface which some may or may not use

Well I've downloaded a trial of Audirvana+ and using my really cheap cable it sounded all right. But I also tried Amarra and that sounded to me really very good indeed. I'm quite keen on it. Warm and vinyl sounding but not muddy. Might be my cheap cable throwing me off the scent of course.

I've not tried a Amara. 

Yes i think Audrivana does improve iTunes even when using 32 bit floating point arithmetic and a Supernova 6. On the cable i have tried a Belkin, Chord and TCI ... The TCI was clearly better than the other two, but needed an adaptor ... the Supernova 6 requires no adaptor and is every bit as good as the now discontinued TCI. 

For the Stello U3 I borrowed I used my Wireworld UV USB cable and a Mark Grant coax. Having tried the U3 I think i'll take the plunge and use one in my main system. The Surpernova 6 will be fine in my office to connect to the UQ until the UQ gets replaced by the DAC V1. The UQ is great, but it irritates  me that i cannot upgrade its firmware and I don't use its streaming capability. I was hoping Naim would have sorted that by now, but I have concluded I'll most likely die before that happens. In any case the DAC V1 promises much more for a Mac user like me.  

Halide uses Wireworld USB cables, albeit up the range from mine. I think any decent USB will do and you can go further and use a USB power supply, but i'll wait before trying that.

it is tempting to say a CDP was easier and in some ways true, but when i discovered the Naim DAC i tried a few transports, not as many as Mr Dane, but i did reach the same conclusion that they are not all the same. However, i guess when we buy a CDP we just use it because it is quite hard to try others. With software every time a new player comes out we download and try because we can. So i think the temptation is higher. I think my Mac setup is better than my CDX2 and that was pretty good. 

So you can't really go too wrong if you use a Naim DAC or the DAC in a Naim amplifier or streamer or indeed if you elect to stay with a CDP. 

Thanks for this information Guy. I realise I'm starting to overcomplicate things and I should just take one step at at time. It's difficult though because this new venture is as exciting for me as going over to CD was.

I'll do some experimenting this weekend and some CD ripping too. So far I'm not unhappy with the sound I'm getting from my very basic set up and the thought that it can only improve is a nice one 

Thanks Guy for the details. So far I am leaning towards Audrivana Plus and will most probably buy the licence when free trail is over. But I would not go into the hassle to replace my Supernova 6 although it does not allow integer mode to work. At this moment, playing 24 Bits music via AV+ using Supernova 6 into nDAC is superb.

Willie, I will follow your progress with interest. Please share your experience here.

Thanks in advance.

Well. I've spent a few hours listening. I have been able to use both the Stello U3 and the Supernova 6.

Now first off, I'm no audiophile and I probably did the wrong thing by chopping and changing to compare them. Also I sort of rushed a bit in my enthusiasm to compare and so this is probably not the most considered assessment. Most definitely a "first impression". I intend to take a lot more time over the next few days to come to better educated conclusions but my initial thoughts are that I'm not sure which I prefer though leaning towards the Stello which does give an improvement generally.

To me the Supernova sounds quite a bit more forward whereas the Stello sounds smoother. The S/nova maybe a bit more detailed and defined in the mid and treble while the Stello has a bit more weight to the sound and certainly takes more of the "glare" off, but I'm not sure if the final result doesn't sound a bit too veiled for my liking. (This could be because I'm used to my CD3.5 giving it a bit of welly though!)

Can this be right? Seems a bit counter-intuitive to me and maybe this impression is incorrect It's been a long week and I'm a bit tired so probably to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I tried these with both the Audirvana+ and Amarra. While the A+ sounded great especially in integer  mode where it really shone, it didn't quite please me as much as the Amarra. The latter sounded like playing an LP whereas the former more "digital". I just really enjoyed the Amarra sound a lot better.

Anyway as I say this is hardly conclusive and probably not very helpful, but as people have been kind enough to point me in the right direction and help with my questions I wanted to contribute my thoughts.

I'd be grateful if people could advise me if there's a tried and tested way to compare these items.

Thanks Willie for the helpful write-up. There are no hard & fast rules when come to do A/B test. It is your ears that matter the most. Plug & unplugging on the same track is the most decent way of comparing different device. I'm a little surprised Supernova 6 is more detailed & refined although not as smoother as Stello in integer mode. Are these margins considered very small?

At the meantime, after listening to AV+ for few days, I have to say it digs more details & yet smoother (or perhaps less digital) compare to Bit Perfect on 24-Bit music using Supernova 6. It seems the Izotope engine does sound superior than Apple Core audio so looks like AV+ is doing a great job. The differences are not huge but certainly audible in my set-up.

Willie, is your Amarra not in integer mode? Appreciate you report back as you go along.

Hi. mikapoh. Yes I'm going to have to look at the Stello again today because my impressions seem peculiar in the comparison.

I don't believe Amarra does integer mode though I might be wrong. I can't seen any indication that it does it anywhere. I have to say the A+ certainly has more clarity yhen iTunes and integer mode really sounds very good indeed but I sill found the Amarra to be as detailed as A+ but also more pleasing.

More checking today seems in order

All righty. I've been listening again today. I have a Hicap2 but have had it on the CD player until now so it wasn't in the equation in previous listening. Anyway, this time I put it on the S/nait.

Today is another day. I'm fresh to it all and I was able to use a little more volume in my testing. Seems to me that the Hicap has made quite a difference for the better. Also it seems that this has shown the Stello in a considerably better light. Last night the difference was there but not so strongly and also I wasn't sure if I liked what it was doing. Today I am a lot keener. I'm not very interested in magazine type waffle but suffice to say that strings sound a lot mellower and the music seems less digital to me. Bass is deeper and there's generally more weight to the sound and I like it! Treble seems more refined and airy.

I've been using Amarra up to now and I really really like it. I will try out A+ again though, given my different experience today with the hicap.

Well that would seem to be that. Now I'm off to listen to some music

The Stello has most definitely won me over. I really like this now I've had a chance to listen properly. I would say the Hicap has made quite a large difference to it's performance and allowed it to show its true colours a bit better. An excellent performer to my ears. I'm keeping this thing

Hi. TBH I'm really not the best person to be asking about this stuff. Guy is the man who sorted me out and put me onto the Stello. He knows a lot more about this stuff than I do and I know he's heard both on a higher end system than mine and his views are undoubtedly more well - formed than mine.

FWIW though I thought both produced really good results. The Supernova 6 sounded to me very clear and detailed with a good bass. It really was good. The Stello sounded more rounded and smooth and to my ears, the bass was very slightly more extended. The sound was fuller and heavier. Either solution really was very good and at an extra £230 the Stello was a by no means a "no brainer" as they say across the pond. I like chamber music and when I listened to string quartets the Stello sounded more natural to me; the strings a fraction less steely and more rounded.

Although I ended up with Amarra, these are pretty much my findings with A+ too. A+
 in integer mode was really good though and I will probably end up buying it at some point in the not too distant but I've spent enough for a couple of months!

BTW I wasn't  using a NDAC I have a Supernait. For the Supernova 6 I put it into the digital input using a mini toslink to toslink connection. With the Stello I put it into the Coaxial digital input of the S/nait. (Strange thing is I can't listen to headphones using my headline after I did the latter hmm will need to ask advice on here ) On the advice of the chap who sold me the Stello I used cheap cable from Maplins. He reckoned it made no difference. He gave me a long technical explanation as to why this was but I didn't really follow it and just accepted his word. There was a reason why the Supernova made such a difference in the configuration I had it in but also a reason why using the Stello there should not be a difference?

Anyway, that's where I'm at now. I'd be interested to know what Guy makes of my ideas because he has a lot more experience in this area.

Thanks again your detailed write-up. We hope Guy will chime in at later time to shed some lights on your experience. 

It is good to know you are enjoying your new kits.

I agree completely with what you have said. 

By using Integer mode Audrivana is doing more precise rendering and delivering it to the Stello in ideal format, the Stello clocks very accurately. This is just what the DAC in an amplifier like the SN wants. As the Stello supports 24/192, it forgoes optical, although the Supernova would support it. 

Audrivana still has advantages when using the Supernova. Sample rate, avoids core audio processing, hogs resources for music, plays from memory not disc. All good things to do .. Of course we have to use ears to hear if it improves the sound, but i'm happy it does.

Mark Grant cables are inexpensive, but nowt wrong with Maplin, as long as it is well made with decent connectors. I like BNC, but you have to se RCA on the Stello.

I think we have two excellent ways of feeding the various DACs. The Stello U3 is as good as i have heard in my main system (Naim DAC), but I shall continue to use the Supernova 6 in the office (until the UQ becomes a DAC V1). 

Naim is using Audiophilio, which also has a good reputation, but i'm not going down that route. I think i've gone as far as i want to on the transport side. I have never heard the Audiophilio product. 

Be interested to know if you go with Amara or Audrivana - too many choices sometimes, but that was always the way of things.

All the best, Guy.  

Guy, your points very well taken.

Currently I am using USB2.0 to connect my external HDD where music library is stored. A change of connection to USB/SPDiF might see a need to use Firewire connection to my HDD. Therefore, I am sticking to Toslink cable such as Supernova 6.

So far Audirvana plays flawlessly and superbly even not on integer mode. The direct mode feature is more than sufficient to convince me to buy it.

You might have changed your mind once JRiver has reached its maturity stage in Mac. Hence, best is to forget fiddling too much on these players 

That actually reminds me that computer audiophile recommended plugging in your USB cable to a USB port that's not used for anything else.  If you look on your system profiler on the Mac (apple menu/about this mac) you'll see that even if you have no other USB devices chained through a physical port, it could have other internal devices on the same bus. In my case, I saw that the bluetooth was on the left hand port. plugging the usb onto the right hand port actually made a small improvement. (Or, as always, I could have just felt smug about the extra effort and my brain fooled me into thinking it was better ;-)