Parents dying

Mista

I think the problem with my Dad was that the cancer had also spread to his bones (principally the pelvic region) and as far as I know - a doctor like Dr Mark or Steve J will probably be able to provide the correct info - opiates aren't that good at mitigating pain in hard tissue.

Whatever, I do not want to take anything away from the hospice staff who did everything they could to  make him comfortable.

At the end in cancer you are right Kevin; often opiates don't even cut it.  We had a lady in one hospital who was certainly going to die soon, and the doctor kept calling the pharmacy to see if what she was prescribing was justified, because the number and amount of opiates were blowing her (the MD's) mind - she couldn't believe it wasn't causing respiratory arrest, and apparently it wasn't cutting the pain either.

I know what you are saying Mista h, and I do agree with you in principal, but the problem is it can become a slippery slope.

In 20 years of community palliative care I can only recall a single patient I whom we were genuinely unable to acheive good or very good symptom control in the final stages. We have various opiates, other analgesic agents as well as sedative medication. It requires skill, experience and a willingness to switch around and use large doses sometimes.

Controlling really severe pain without causing major sedation is not always possible though-in the last days the patient and family may have to accept them being fairly knocked out. Controlling severe pain when patients are still 'well' and active/wishing to be alert etc is more difficult.

Cancer and pain are not always together. The last two patients I cared for at home (both in the last month) required precisely 3 days of opiate painkillers only between them at the end of their illness. One had taken no analgesia above paracetamol since diagnosis in the summer.

Bruce

Hello Mark

Wont bleat on to much,but for me when quality of life goes then its time to go. My own mother suffered from Parkinsons for years,then she got cancer,whilst in hospital she had a stroke,could not eat,hardly ever awake.On a rare occasion she was awake she told me she was happy in hospital as their were soldiers on the roof protecting her led by Tony Blair.

When i got the call that she had suddenly died i felt relief for her as their was no quality of life left,it was time to move over and let the new born take your place.

Mista h

I understand the relief, and as I said I can agree in principal, but the question becomes who gets to make the call, and at what point?

That's why I said it is a potentially slippery slope.

And of course Dr W, every case is different - I wish I could remember the regimen this small, Asian lady was one, but it was a LOT of drug, and she was still suffering.

If it comes to it, I hope that my Doctor firstly talks to me then then agrees that pain-relief is more important than another few weeks of suffering ...

I would and have done that much for animals.

I'd take the risk for myself that the doctor was a little early in his advice!

ATB from George

My sympathies and best wishes for what is a difficult time by any measure.

I lost both parents within 2.5 years of each other. It was bloody awful and the only thing to do is to keep going and pay attention to your own health and energy levels. And those of your other nearest and dearest. For something which is logical and expected (unless they are unfortunate enough to go in the early part of the bell curve) it is still misery and insanity inducing. And you won't get over it, just cope with it better over time. For the longest time it was impossible for me to think of my parents in any terms other than the manner of their deaths and all the personal baggage that goes with it. Now I am remembering them more for how they lived, what they achieved and other nicer perspectives. Not that the end of life memories will ever go away. Many lessons learned, some too late but it did jolt me into putting our affairs in order so that our children will have the lest logistical hassle in the event that Helen and I go simultaneously.

Why not let the patient make the decision for him/herself? Then it's only a few situations where the slippery slope problems arise. My old man (retired medic; many hours spent by the bedsides of the dying who had no-one else to be with them)) still cannot understand how, in a supposedly civilised society, your cat or dog is allowed to die with more dignity than you are.

But that's less relevant now than to add my sympathy to that already offered. My prayers too, if that helps.

Mark

I didn't really expect this thread to be revived, and I had decided not to myself as it seemed a bit maudlin to impose on others.

I was, and am, very grateful for all the kind words expressed above.

Isabel Marianne Smith died on 3rd August. She was not in pain, and my brother, father, and I had all had the chance to say goodbye. Which is more than a lot of people get. I genuinely believe the timing was in some ways her choosing, too. I wasn't there, but I don't feel I needed to have been. Enough had been said.

It wasn't a surprise, but it was still a shock. The initial grief has passed, but I still find the occasional fleeting thing, memory, place, jerks the beginning of a tear.

Christmas is going to be very tough for my dad, and I don't think he has really let go yet. We will all be there, and intend to scatter her ashes near to a bench we are having dedicated in a place that meant a lot to her and much to all of us. I can't say I'm looking forward to it exactly, but I remain glad that her suffering is over.

Thank you again.

Rod,

I am very sorry to hear Isabel passed away, my sympathies and best wishes go out to you and your family,

All the best

PB

Dear Rod,

I did not post when your thread was new, but it should go without saying that anyone who has lost one or both parents can hardly fail to sympathise.

In a couple of weeks it will be three years since my Norwegian aunt, my mother's husband and I scattered the ashes of my mother near Ludlow. My father died ten years before that.

My sympathies, from George

I also lost my mum this year so I know what you have been through. 87 years was a good life, but still sadly missed.

Kind regards,

Dave

Rod

I've been there, too, and I think Harry's earlier post says it really, really well.

My sympathies and I hope your Dad gets through Xmas as well as he can.

MDS 

My condolences.

It's so difficult. 

My mother and I rarely exchanged a jovial word between my 10th birthday in 1980, and my 34th. I was much closer to my father (although he and I could argue for England.. But usually to the point of reaching a useful conclusion). He and I to this day share our love of motorsport, photography and music. Not too surprising as he is still (aged 71) an active freelance photographer and was an F1 lensman in the 60's and 70's. 

I suppose mum felt shut out by our bond, and in retrospect I can forgive every cross word I ever received from her. 

She fought off cancer once. But the 2nd time was not to be. We had grown closer as I had become a happy and focused man in a committed relationship. She very much approved of where I had gotten to in life, and we were planning my wedding when the news came in that the cancer had returned. 

The last time we spoke was on her 68th birthday. She had lymphoma in the brain stem, and this had brought about a child-like state, but she knew EXACTLY what she was saying. 

She apologised for always taking the tough stance, but promised that it had only been to strengthen me. She apologised to my father, in front of me, for not being as supportive as she felt she could, and she said that she was really looking forward to seeing Joanne's wedding dress. 

The following day she slipped into a coma. 6 weeks later she quietly passed, and 8 days after that I married the only girl in my life that she showed the slightest approval for.

2 years on I find it difficult to separate the saddest and happiest days of my life. They still meld into one great big emotional blur.

Saddest of all is watching my 92 year old grandmother survive her own daughter, but as dementia grips she has difficulty remembering the name of her only child.

The thing is though, I think in a way fate has been relatively kind.  My father and I are very close and support each other.  Had my father been taken and my mother remained, her hard edged defences would right now be driving a wedge between us.

My grandmother will soon not remember my mother at all... But is in safe hands, physically fit for her age, and it seems to be the long term memory that her condition is affecting.

I know for sure that Mum was at peace with how my life has headed, and my wife knows that the world's pickiest potential mother-in-law not only accepted her, but also really really liked her. 

We cannot reasonably expect not to outlive our parents, and although my family has a precise example of the opposite, there isn't worse fate I can imagine for a parent than to be healthy of body and mind knowing that you have outlived your children.

We all have our stories in this thread. I only hope that each of us finds something in one of the others that makes it a little easier to deal with either the memory of someone gone, or to deal with such a situation happening within their own family. 

My condolences 

Mike

My deepest condolences.

Slightly off topic, but Mike mentioned about parents outliving their children.

The death of a parent must be extremely difficult to cope with; my worst experience was burying my son after 3 days of life.

I only ever saw him once, he was on a life support machine with his stomach being pumped and tubes everywhere.

When the doctors told my wife and I that he had virtually no chance of survival, we requested the life support machine be turned off. He passed within 10 minutes.

This certainly changes your perspective on life.

Trevor

Trevor that's one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever read. There is some order to losing elderly parents. It's awful, but shit naturally happens. Losing a child is the the worst thing I can imagine happening to my wife and me.

I hope you're coming to terms with it.

Good luck mate.

Condolences to you Rod, and Trevor thanks for sharing that very personal story here.

A few years ago a friend of ours little girl died at only a few weeks old. I have to say watching him and his wife get out of the car and him carrying such a small white coffin into the church was gut wrenching.

Mista h