DSD Streaming

Chord are at it too. I expect it comes down to licences and code. 

I thought Oppos were straight SACD players? Are they now extracting the native DSD stream and pushing it through an on board DAC? I wonder if the DSD stream can be sent elsewhere. That would be big progress and an indication that Sony have finally had the stick removed from their arse  - which I must admit to being skeptical of.

Oppo's DSD playback is "support for Direct Stream Digital (DSD) file playback from local storage. The DSD files can be either stereo or multi-channel. Both the DFF and the DSF formats are supported."

local storage can be a USB stick.

Would be nice if Naim could offer DSD support, I'm still on the lookout fo a DSD DAC and am awaiting a review of my most likely candidate.

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Aleg

But DSD does not make so much sense with a multi-bit dac like the ndac or the nds uses which wants PCM audio (i mean the dac chip itself i.e. PCM1704). Thus the DSD must be converted to PCM first. In this case you can also simple buy for example the DSD to PCM converted audio files like HDTracks offers. The interesting part with native DSD audio is if you have for example a delta-sigma dac where you can skip the conversion and directly feed the dac.

jerry

Jerry

Naim could always offer an additional DSD upgrade board with e.g. an ES9018 chip.

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Aleg

DACs like Benchmarks new DAC2 HGC offer native DSD conversion. Not so easy getting hold of true DSD masters though.

I have noticed that Channel Classics is now selling DSD files for their titles. If you buy lower res versions you can upgrade later for the difference in cost. I have several of their 24/192 titles (mostly the Fisher/Budapest performances of Mahler).

Jerry, is right in my opinion, DSD is really optimised for over sampled single bit, where as Naim use multi bit DACs which are optimised for PCM at 16 or 24 bit. Also DSD has only an effective bit depth of 16 bits so I understand.

I would have thought the best way is to convert the DSD into a 24bit PCM signal although there might be some losses and rounding errors in the conversion, but the format is really suited for a completely different D to A process and I would have thought there would be quite a sonic compromise in combining a DAC transfer function for multi bit and single bit processing.

Simon

If you are into Mahler, the DSD master of Michael Tilson Thomas Mahler 1 is also available from Blue Coast Records. Cookie Marencos website has lots of good links and (unlike HDTracks) makes it clear that a DSD download should originate from a DSD (or analogue?!) master, not converted PCM. But it seems such a difficult medium to record in, so I suspect, like SACD, it will never really get anywhere, it may even be the case that it is already more used for archiving analogue masters than recording. 

Why does everyone here get sweaty about 'the next thing'

history is strewn with various formats that simply did not make it. 

Why should naim make 'dsd' available, or airplay or what ever? The formats it supports are universily the most popular in the world

It's not the same for high res. There is a paucity of music available and the next universally popular format is not established. Plenty available but none universality popular. DSD may come to nothing or something. Naim won't rush to embrace a passing fad but I'm sure they will not ignore DSD because if the noise being generated in the industry comes to something, and the titles are not available in another format they will lose business. I expect the reality is that a conversion to PCM is more likely. But it's too early to say. I also expect that early adopters/evangelists with deep ish pockets will/do run a separate DSD converter, of which there are an increasing number. If a lot of my favorites were on DSD only, I'd be looking at the Chord.

Garyi

i don't consider it to be the 'next' thing, DSD IMHO always has been the better format, but was locked up in the proprietary SACD-disc.

But now, since SACD's can be ripped and computerbased audio playback is rocketing, it is possible to  use the DSD format directly for playback. So for me it is not the next thing, but an 'at last' sensation. I just hope Naim will join the line of DsD dacs, just because I like the Naim sound and would like to keep everything Naim if possible. I think that's the best guarantee for a good system balance.

@Likes: And DSD is not more difficult to record, but more 'difficult' to edit and master because there aren't many editing/mastering workstations capable of doing so I think most companies have invested in PCM workstations and obviously don't like to have to invest in DSD capable workstations as well, while the format has not been widely accepted yet.

But I'm glad there is a rise in interest in the format and welcome the new DSD capable DACs, for me it's just a matter of finding the one with the right balance of price and quality.

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Aleg

BUt whats available Aleg, what will be made available? A coupld of albums by dire straits and a classical album is hardly worth the effort is it?

What new music has come out in the format this is not available in any other format? 

I really can't understand the interest around DSD other than at a technical curiosity level.. It uses a one bit over sampled encoding. This technique has been around for ages.(Delta Sigma encoding) Typically it has been more difficult to do the D to A conversion and A to D conversion really well, which is why typically PCM encoding is favoured. When i studied such things i seem to remember its advantage to PCM was linearity at the expense of high frequency  distortion.. But multibit DACs have come on significantly since then. But at the end of the day it is simply an alternate encoding format. DSD is alo limited it appears to 16 bit. . Not so much a real world limitation for end media, but not great for mastering... Unless there are some new DSD formats being developed.

Sooo I can't see what's in it for the consumer?.. And unless it's obvious I can't see DSD being anything than a niche curiosity. Certainly I can't see it, but then again what do I know. I invested in DCC 20 years ago, and look what happened to that...

Simon

One person from the recording industry described the diufference like this:

" - In my quest to find the most transparent audio recording methods I have quantified the following:  [First the comparisons were done in a Studio environment with accurate nearfield monitors to eliminate acoustic contamination (not my normal/preferred listening method) and then with Magnetic-Planars in an audiophile listening room (preferred). The Digital Data was stored directly on SanDisk SLC (single-level cell) Solid State Drives (the best sounding that I have found). Points of comparisons were Live Musicians vs. everything else.]  

Live vs. the live microphone feed was listened to first, to establish a base of reference and to get a sense of the loss from the Mics/cables etc. Then it was Live vs. 30IPS Analog Tape, 24/192 PCM and 2.8224 MHz DSD. Comparisons were also made between the different recordings against each other.  

Consistently:

A.  24/192 PCM Sounds more like the Live Feed

B. 24/192 PCM Sounds more like the Analog Master Tape

C. ALWAYS some transparency was lost if we cross converted, such as DSD to PCM or vice versa.

D. DSD sounds more like the Live Musicians!  

 

 

How can this be?? How can the DSD sound more like the Musicians, while PCM sound more like the Live Microphone Feed when both Recorders are AFTER the feed??  I don’t know. (A logical assumption would be, DSD is adding something that compensated for the Mic/wire loss. And/Or perhaps there is a perceptual issue going on in the human brain.) DSD sounds very smooth, dynamic, organic, lively,….well just live, with wonderful flow. The results were consistent with the listening panel preferring the DSD especially in the audiophile listening room over ALL other formats. To me DSD reminds me of Vinyl whereas 24/192 PCM reminds me of the Analog Master Tape of the same recording. Very weird indeed."

I don't like entering into a bickering over DSD vs PCM.

Just listen to what you like best.

I just think it isn't a fad.

I like Mahler and the other classical that is available as DSD, but I have no way to play that format. I'm not that worried about it anyway. The current 24-bit formats and ripping CDs to AIFF works fine for me via ND5XS. I prefer vinyl anyway, which is where most of my music collection is.

I do need to listen to the Tilson Thomas someday. I have the old DG Kubelik (complete) and Decca Solti/LSO (1-3 )on vinyl, and the more recent Fischer/Budapest (1-4, 6) on 24/192 digital.

Digging deeper into the Blue Coast Records website I discover that many of the DSD downloads (but not the TT) are actually recorded, mixed and mastered on 2" analogue tape - the transcription to DSD is done as a final stage! So if you find vinyl satisfying for it's "analogueness" then it maybe that you might find these DSD masters pleasing for the same reasons.