Streaming audio - is it worth it?

Hi Desertrat -

A lot has been written on this subject, so you really should search the archives and read some older threads.  In the meantime, I'd be happy to share an opinion or two.

If you really like playing CDs, then just keep doing that. The upside is that you know what you are doing, there is no learning curve, and there is no Extra effort. Ripping your CD collection and making sure all of the meta data and album art is correct is usually pretty straight forward, but can, on occasion, be a pain.  Also, if you are not computer savvy, you may need some assistance setting up a home network including network-attached storage (NAS) for your music. That said, I prefer streaming, and am very glad I went down that route. 

The single biggest reason for moving to streaming is to expand the list of albums that you currently have "in rotation".  I had this conversation with Doug Graham at last year's RMAF, and it made a lot of sense to me.  Nobody actually enjoys looking for CDs to play.  You scan your shelves, with head leaning over your shoulder so you can read the spines. Over time, you wind up with a dozen or CDs in a pile some where near your player, and they become what you listen to most -- a relatively small number of selections!  When you rip your entire collection, searching becomes so easy that you never have to pull out that dozen or so albums!  Instead, everything and anything is but a touch away. You wind up having a much, much larger list of albums in rotation. And you also find yourself more easily rediscovering long forgotten records.

The other thing that can be a lot of fun is DJ'ing.  When Mrs. Hook and I sit down to listen together, we'll take turns. Once I've picked something, I'll hand her the iPad and she'll start searching.  We'll occasionally trade tunes until the wee hours!  We also both enjoy nStream's Rovi service. Not only do we read about the current artist playing, but we often use it's reference engine to suggest similar music to play next.  

As far as sound quality goes, the CDS3/555PS is said to be a fine CD player.  I have not owned one, so can not speak from experience.  Some folks on the forum prefer its sound over comparably priced streamers while others have moved on with absolutely no regrets. I would suggest you audition the NDS.  

Keep in mind that a CD player gets one and only one chance to read a CD in real time.  If there are errors in this process, then sound quality can suffer. Rippers, by contrast, get to try as many times as it takes to get a perfect rip, and the results can be matched against a consensus checksum stored in the Accuraterip database.  Network players buffer data and also use error correction.  In sum, a computer network is simply a more reliable and repeatable way of getting a stream of music data to a dac.

One other option to consider is ripping your CDs, and using your laptop (or other computer) as a player.  It is easy to convert your laptop's USB output to S/PDIF, and connect to the Naim DAC.  The DAC/555PS is also a formidable combination.  Again, I prefer the NDS and UPnP streaming, but that is also because I want my music library to be available, over the network, to multiple rooms and/or people.  From a sound quality perspective, I feel the NDS betters the DAC, but there Is at least one cone-headed guy on this forum who feels otherwise!  ;-)

While I've tried to be somewhat even-handed in this comparison, I am sure I failed miserably!  It is hard for me to hide my bias towards streaming.  For me, the effort has been totally worth it, and I am not exaggerating when I say that streaming has fundamentally changed the way we listen to digital music at home.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do!

Hook

Desertrat, I've been in the hard-drive based storage music playback mode for almost two years now.

Hook hit all of the issues that lead us to this technology.  In, I think, the right order of benefits for us (my wife and me), the factors leading us to hard-drive based storage are (1) instant accessibility of the entire music collection in a hand-held device, (2) no cd's stored in the living room and no cd clutter, and more recently (3) availability of the entire collection instantly to two separate systems located in remote portions of the home.

(1) Instant Accessibility.  Most folks have a "system" that lets them find cd's.  For me, that would involve some form of alphabetical storage in racks or binders.  As I age, and my eyesight deteriorates, I have less and less patience for trying to read the spines of cd's in a rack in a dimly-lit living room.  And even removing that physical limit, scrolling the list of artists or titles on an iDevice proved MUCH faster than trying to browse the racks.

(2) Eliminating CD storage and clutter.  This was HUGE for us and is really as important as (1) above.  We knew what we wanted for living room decor, and while a nice hi fi fit the decor, racks and racks of cd's did not.  Further, I know myself, and I could NOT promise to re-rack every cd as soon as I was finished with it.  The ability to have a hi fi of stunning quality, and NO cd's in the room, was huge.  I cannot over-state the importance of this element to our decision.

(3)  One collection -- two systems.  This is somewhat self-evident, and is the cart, not the horse.  But I do not think that I would have even considered a second system if it meant splitting up a cd collection, or having to grab cd's from the first floor to play them on the third floor.  I love having this second system, and I surely would not have had it if not for having a music server and network.

I have found any technical hurdles to be easily overcome, and have found it fun to learn a little more about home networking.  I have zero glitches in the system; my UPnP based system seems to just work. Consistently.  The little glitches I've gotten (the rare music on my server that won't index) I've figured out.  I add an average of 5 or so cd's to my collection weekly, and the issues are RARE.  I'm totally satisfied.

I hope that this helps and I'm happy to relate more of our experiences.

What they said...

Hook - I think that is so cool that you & Mrs. Hook "DJ" together - you obviously married a keeper!

(Now the question begs...did she? )

One cone-headed guy responding....

I think Bart summarises the point well.. The main advantage is accessibility to your music and removing the clutter of thousands of CDs. You can store them all away in big silver flight cases in the garage like I do :-)

I also re discovered many lost recordings when I ripped my collection.

Finally with regard to Hooks shared listening expierience.. Although I don't DJ with Mrs S-in-S, in conversation, we sometimes mention a song or theme associated with a memory or expierience and it can quite poignant and /or fun to pull it out of the archive and play. Streaming makes this a reality ... It takes us about 30 secs to fetch a track out of nearly 14,000 in our case. 

Simon

The bigger your music collection, the more sense disc-based storage and playback makes for all the reasons already mentioned. There is an initial learning curve, the details of which vary depending on the particular ripping/storing/serving/streaming solution you choose (and, to some extent, your type of music if you're a big classical listener). Making an informed choice is probably the most difficult aspect of the whole thing in my view. Looking at the terminology used when the matter is under discussion can be enough to make your head hurt and, I think, is one of the main barriers to taking the plunge for some (it was for me). However, if you use a computer reasonably regularly for any reason then I would expect you to manage ok, with occasional gritted teeth. The journey is worth it when you arrive at your destination, as it were.

I bought a Superuniti because it had streaming capabilities, but with the intention of just carrying on with my CD based listening and learning about streaming when I thought I could get my head round it. I've never yet downloaded a music file and I still buy all my music on CD's. However, they are ripped on arrival and never spun again. I've never spun a CD since I completed ripping my collection (about 1350 at the moment). Some people say they love the experience of perusing the discs on the shelf, selecting and then playing them. If you still love that and have no trouble searching your entire collection, then you may as well continue as you are. I could never go back to that, though and I now listen to far more from the collection than I ever did. I have no regrets at all. I'm enjoying buying cheap CD's (many quite old, from the days where they actually mastered and mixed them well ) from Ebay and Amazon to swell the collection too.

Prior to streaming my LP12 saw 90% of the action while the CD555 (and CDS3 before that) saw 10%.

Now that I have a Klimax DS listening on the streaming side is up to 50%.  The true test of anything is how much it gets used.  My cd's went from barely used to used all the time.

Hook is right on the money re. Exploring a much wider range of your collection.

In your situation last year I moved from CDS3/555PS to HDX nDAC/555PS with absolutely no regrets and unexpected audio benefits - thoroughly enjoying it. G

Many thanks to all for your time and sharing your experiences. It certainly sounds appealing to explore further.

It sounds like there could be 2 options for me to venture in to stored/streaming audio.

1. N-DAC (powered by existing in to 552). If I connected to a PC with itunes store what would the connection be - USB to USB? Would this give an inferior sound compared to say a coaxial/or optical connection to the N-DAC. So the files would be sent to NDAC from itunes? Even when you use a NAS the PC still controls instructions to send music files to NDAC?

2. NDX/NDS still connected to PC and itunes, but you use the menu setup on NDX/NDS to access your files?

I have heard that itunes doesn't sell FLAC files. So where do you buy those? Presumably these can still be brought in to itunes and continue to use itunes as your file manager? Or do people end up using several services like itunes for different music, etc.

I would be interested to hear if music up the streaming hierarchy is more akin to moving up the CD hierarchy in Naim (more refinement, detail, etc) or more like moving up the preamp hierarchy (which to me was more substantive) - more prat, scale, soundstaging, control , etc  - 

Many thanks for all your all your help

Desertrat

The question is not so much if it is worth it, as if it is worth it to you.  And there’s only one person who can answer that question. It takes time, auditioning, cogitation, planning and resources.  I can’t tell you if it will be worth it for you. With the inevitable duplication of some of what has already been posted I will share my personal experiences, for what they are worth.

We had been slowly moving towards our goal of going CDS3 for some years when the HDX broke cover. We had a CDX2 so it was logical in the first instance to compare one X level source with another. And the HDX walked it. It was couched to me in terms of a streamed file being less molested mechanically and electrically by all the trashing about which is necessary to play a CD. It seemed logical to me but regardless of the reasons, the music flowed more easily and sounded more convincing to my ears. Helen was sold on the spot but I still coveted a CDS3.

It was academic at that point because we did not have sufficient resources for the source upgrade. But the possibility of streaming was food for thought. It never hurts to have more options.

Just over two years later we were ready to pull the trigger. By then the DAC was coming. HDX into DAC/XPS2 and CDX2.2 into DAC/XPS2 both gave the CDS3/XPS2 a run for its money. We now had a real choice and in the end we went for streaming based on musical enjoyment. A totally subjective decision and the tipping point point which will make/break it for you if you proceed. It's the one aspect which is irrefutable to the individual. Everything else is debatable.

Then came the bonuses. Convenience of operation. I don’t mind walking across a room to select an album and press play. But the depth of searches you can perform on an iPad and the way your music collection is presented to you were compelling - after the fact. I’m a big fan of the playlist too. It puts me in touch with my inner control freak and means I never have to lift a finger to avoid tracks which I have disliked for years and have no intention of trying to make friends with in the relatively few years I have left to enjoy my collection.

HiRes material was another door to open. As is to be expected, providence and master quality reign supreme but there is some fantastic stuff out there which a CD player cannot access and since ripped CDs streamed sounded better to me in any case, there was nothing not to like.

The advent of dedicated streamers has moved the experience so far on now that I’m in a completely different place and enjoying it hugely. The old cliché about having a brand new music collection is truer now as it ever was. Five years ago I could not have possibly imagined the gains in musical enjoyment which were coming. We are truly living in a renaissance. And there is so much choice – still including the venerable 16/44 which we got lumbered with in the 80s. The NDS is digging into musical information, texture, interplay and cues out of (ripped) CDs which I thought I knew as well as it was possible to. And as usual I was wrong.

I’m also content to now be using a more legacy technology than CD. I don’t know where all the “new fangled faddish” perceptions comes from regarding pushing files over wired networks. CD is a newer technology and it seems to have hit its limit in a considerably shorter life span.

So over the last 4-5 years we have spent some considerable time listening at the dealer, dragging boxes home and generally cogitating. The CD555 was also a part of this evaluation process, as was the (still dearly loved by me) CDS3.

The networking aspect was easy. There are lots of ways of going about it, including leaning on the services of a dealer, Naim HQ or your local IT/network bloke in his van. I did it all myself. Not because I am expert but because it is easy.  And it has proved reliable.

It was worth our trouble. Is it worth yours? I really can’t say. But if you are dipping in I wish you big fun. Because fun is what it is all about and if you don’t find it so then you’re likely better off sticking. It’s not like you’re slumming it with your system.

You bet.

Hi Desertrat

I was in your shoes 18 months ago and was as confused as you are now. I replaced my CDS2 with a NDX, and later upgraded to NDS.

Many excellent and detailed replies have been given above, but if the whole CAS / streaming thing still sounds too complicated to you, you might want to read two excellent articles written by AudioQuest. Just go to their website main page, click "computer audio" on the right and you will see the two articles.

I think Naim's info is either too technical (white papers that only make sense to electronic engineers) or just meaningless marketing waffle (product pages). Sorry, Naim.

Lol, very nice reply Bart.

Jason

IMHO you can forget about iTunes as a music store, at the moment it's all 128 or 256kbps files. There is talk of it offering 24 bit versions in future but no one knows when or whether it is really coming. As a music library though it can be a good option, depending on your needs.

HI all

Bart - a very clarifying reply from you - much appreciated. I am starting to understand the options better!

I think I probably have enough information to take myself down to a Naim dealer. I'm not used to dealers helping with Naim demos - I bought all my kit when I was in the Middle East and there was no demo equipment available - you just bought on the faith of Naim. I want to avoid the upgrade path - I went from 282 > 252 > 552. All very enjoyable but trading equipment in takes its toll on finances! I couldn't stomach the NDS price right away, if that was the sound I liked best I would have to be patient and build up the cash reserves.

Harry makes a good point that I hadn't thought of - the mechanics of CD mechanisms and their effect on the whole box and its impact on sound which is done away with in streaming audio.

The NAS type devices that Naim make clearly would bump up the costs even further. Which other NAS devices have people used to good effect? I take it these are connected to the NDX/NDS via an ethernet cable.

I can see that the initial hassle factor of setting this all up has a payback in ease of use once it is all working.

Bart - thanks for the info on where you buy your FLAC files, etc - interesting. If you don't use itunes as a "manager" of your music do you use some other software or simply store music on a NAS?

Thanks in advance.

Desertrat.

Desertrat -- depending on the dealer, you may or may not get better advice from them than you do from some folks here!  You SHOULD be able to get great advice, but it can be variable.  You'll get great advice here, with the proviso that you also get the opinions, and have to separate fact from opinion and try to imagine what works for YOU.

If you go the NDS/NDX/ND5XS route, those are "network players" and do need to be networked to a server.  For nas's running UPnP servers, the most popular seem to be ReadyNAS (Netgear), Synology and QNap.  They are 'connected' by an ethernet cable but, again, not directly -- much better networked through a switch on your home network.  This is usually easily accomplished.

I use UPnP streaming and a NDS player, so by definition the NDS controls playback.  I use the nStream app on an iPhone and iPad to control that.  I have the Naim UnitiServe and that rips my cd's, stores the files (internal 2 tb hard drive) and is a UPnP server.  But I also have a Synology nas that can store the music and serve it a LOT less expensively.  (I like 'stuff' so I have a nas even though I own a  UnitiServe. The nas comes in handy around the home anyway.)

This stuff will slowly sink in.  Feel free to keep askin'!

I started off with a ReadyNAS Duo and spent a little time comparing playback from the HDX HDD with the NAS. I actually thought NAS playback sounded better so I put it down to transient insanity and concluded that there was no difference. This allowed me to start working from a NAS orientated POV and I find this advantageous. I'm using a QNAP 410 now. Nice device. All music is mirrored but more importantly, backed up onto a USB drive whenever I make a change to the collection.

If I was starting over I wouldn't consider as lavish a ripper/server as the HDX but we decided to retain it when we went NDS. It's the Swiss Army Knife of the system and although I know I could do as well for considerably less outlay we didn't see the point in arsing about. A feature of the HDX (and I believe the US) is parallel transcoding, which in my case means that all my 16/44 rips also exist as MP3s, which is useful for transfer to other devices, particularly getting music into our cars.

Don't forget Vortexbox. It was the simplest solution I could find, providing it meets individual needs

Just to make clear for people who consider streaming and harddisk based systems. The Naim servers, Userve/ns0x/hdx actually is a cd player, harddisk player/rip solution, Upnp server that can play music from all devices on the network and stream music to upnp devices, and the ns0x and hdx have internal automated backup and can automate backups to nas.

Another thought to throw in the mix ... your biggest investment, especially in the early stages, is ripping your cds. Whichever playback strategy you end up with, getting your cds ripped accurately and with accurate tags is central to quality of your experience. There are several different viable strategies, depending on whether you like windows things, apple things or naim things. So do consider how it will suit you to rip your cds, and how many you have to do . It's worth getting going with ripping now on whatever pc/mac you might have lying about. Rip 10 or 20 cds, play with servers, different players, connect the headphone socket from your computer to your hifi for a bit of fun .. exploring can be very cheap. 

The two posts above are part of the reason we stayed with the HDX (although it was mostly inertia). The HDX will play CDs - how charmingly retro. I would be less happy feeding a CD into the slot of the US, in fact I wouldn't risk it. It's ripping and WAV tagging capabilities are also of a high order. I wouldn't buy an HDX for ripping but it's an ability which is well regarded in this house and we were happy to retain.

Hi Harry,

Why would you not risk ripping in the u-Serve, what's the problem??????

Jason

The problem is that the loading and eject mechanism comes into contact with the surface. With the best will in the world and as much care as you can lavish on it, one spec of grit can leave you with a damaged CD. The probability is low and damage to the surface will be mostly invisible. So it's unlikely to be an issue - right up until the moment when it scores a valuable/irreplaceable treasured item. There'll be no going back from that point.

Your concern is admirable.....and there are degrees of risk, but I am not sure one is able to mitigate against dust and tiny objects scoring anything, in any sphere of our unclean world, but I take your point none the less.

Jason