Unitiserve and mains ethernet connection

Posted by: skerrols on 04 May 2013

I have just bought a unitiserve

I intend to connect it directly to my DAC but appreciate that it must also be connected to the intenet for ripping tags etc.

The Modem is no where near where the hifi lives so my question is this;

Could I use a mains networking adaptors to make that connection without affecting the quality of sound from the Unitiserve? I cant imagine why it would, as I would be feeding the music direct from the US. I can appreciate that sending a music data signal through the mains might affect quality but this is not my intention....

All going well, I will soon be consigning my CD's to the loft - the place will look empty (and tidy!)

Posted on: 04 May 2013 by Claus-Thoegersen

As I understand the problem you will get a lot of polution through the network cable, but other people here knows much more about the technical details. Would it be possible to wire the serve to a second router just used as a wireless extender and a switch?

A search reveals that the homeplugs pollutes the mains, wich Naim equipment do not like at all!!

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/.../ethernet-over-mains

Posted on: 04 May 2013 by skerrols

Thanks Claus

So what you are saying is that the introduction of a mains network cable creates an unacceptable level of interferance regardless of function. The mere connection of a mains ethernet cable can degrade sound quality....

Posted on: 04 May 2013 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Hi skerrols, unfortunately it is highly likely - just by the very nature of how Ethernet over Mains works, that you will create a huge amount of RFI. On a revealing sensitive circuitry this almost certainly will cause low level distortions - usually intermodulation distortion that will rob the audio of its vibrancy and micro dynamics. Now if you only listen to mp3 for example the affects might not be that noticeable but for other loss less high quality formats then it will be different.

Unfortunately, unless all your mains leads and wiring are shielded both structurally and with appliances, Ethernet over main also radiates through the air and creates an RF field within your house. This RF is like regular radio and is not limited to wires, albeit relatively very low power level. Also in my personal opinion having this wideband RF field strength on 24x7 in a house is not healthy - especially in bedrooms - but I can't point to research on this other than general safety principles to long term RF and EM exposure.

If you want to get an idea - borrow a SW radio and turn it on in your house and just tune up and down between 3MHz and 30MHz and you will hear a phenomenal amount of continuous wideband RF modulated energy! (You can also hear pollution from neighbours as well - or if you are using Ethernet over mains and they are into hifi and/or radio they may come knocking on your door)

So the alternate is wifi or wired. There are some very effective flat Ethernet cables available now that you can lay under carpet or behind skirting boards which are in obtrusive and 100% effective - might be worth a look at.

Simon

Posted on: 04 May 2013 by Bart

You could easily do the experiment to see if you hear anything -- much more satisfying than debating possibilities.

And for about the same cost you could make the connection over wifi, which would be my first choice as well.

Posted on: 04 May 2013 by skerrols

Many thanks Simon/Bart

you can always count on a well informed and helpful response here . I was going to buy the aformentioned plugs but dont think I will now !. Probably cheaper to use the cat6 cable anyway - just a bit more hassle - thanks again!

Posted on: 05 May 2013 by Bart

Originally Posted by skerrols:

Many thanks Simon/Bart

You're welcome! Sure, you can't go wrong with an ethernet cable connection, but the UnitiServe 'pulls down' so little data from the internet that I'm sure you'd be happy with the performance of wifi. To me, if I could hide the cable under the rug -- no problem. If it meant seeing the cable, I would opt for wifi. My builder put cat5 in the walls, which I like but can be a hassle to retro-fit.

Posted on: 06 May 2013 by skerrols

OK !

Up and running now. I purchased a bridging device/adaptor and am now connected wirelessly

Delighted with the playback quality.

Of the 15 or so CD's I have ripped so far, the US has managed to find only two album covers - both from AMG (All media Guide). Free DB has failed to find any cover art at all and genre tends to be "Data" - Am I doing somthing wrong ? Bah. Surely I dont have to do every CD manually?

I am using the Desktop Server and all seems to be working correctly. The US is able to access the internet and reports succesful CD matches.....

Posted on: 06 May 2013 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Hi, I guess that is a wifi access point bridge? Glad you got it working and sounding good.

Simon

Posted on: 08 May 2013 by H van Wijk

Hi I also just bought a Unitiserve. I use an Airport Express to connect it to my local wifi network. This way I can use my Macs to transfer downloads and make backups. Internet radio also works fine, except for the hick up earlier this week which I initially thought to be a local firewall problem. Rgs Hans

Posted on: 08 May 2013 by H van Wijk

To clarify, I connect the Unityserve with an Ethernet cable to the Airport Express; it works perfect. H

Posted on: 08 May 2013 by Sutton

I use Ethernet over the mains supply and works fine. Experiment and judge for yourself. I'm sure there might be some installations where interference may arise but I don't think its an absolute certainty ! If interference is a worry then switch off everything, including the microwave, dish washer mobile phones and consider investing in lead boxes.

Posted on: 08 May 2013 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Sutton the interference level from a slightly leaky microwave and Ethernet over Powerline could be millions of times different in magnitude. By its very nature and the laws of physics ethernet over Powerline converts your house wiring loom and appliances into a wide band radio transmitter antenna and injects RF current into attached appliances. In my Naim manual it warns me against exposure of Naim equipment to RF. I couldn't believe it when once with Ofcom we measured a house 200 yards away that was transmitting so potently with a pair of Comtrend PLA that it was impacting ADSL signals being carried in copper pairs outside the house. Now that was extreme hence why Ofcom were involved, but they all cause interference/radiation in varying degrees UK wiring setups

I am glad you and your neighbours don' notice. But i have requested Ofcom remove 4 PLA installations in .25 mile radius to me as they were radiating severely ( I think they were all Comtrend devivces ) and causing interference to my radio and reducing my ADSL sync speed by upto 20%. Fortunately Ofcom using their powers with other third parties obliged once they measured and confirmed the interference and RF radiation. I have not heard of Ofcom removing a leaky microwave oven however or requiring the owner to stop it from leaking.

So by all means experiment but I feel I should point out the extreme radiating interference that some PLA installations will cause to you and your neighbours and we are not talking about a dodgy switch mode power supply here.

Simon

Posted on: 09 May 2013 by Sutton

Thank you Simon. Sounds like you have serious problems. NAIM provides the following under its support section -

Can I use Homeplugs?

Ethernet-over-mains products such as Homeplugs offer an inexpensive and convenient way of creating a virtual wired network in your home. They are plugged into mains sockets and carry network data over your existing mains wiring, and are connected at each end to networked devices using Ethernet cable.

In many cases, these are a great way to create a strong, interference-free network. However, we have found cases where, depending on the nature of your mains supply, adding a network signal to it can have a detrimental effect on the quality of mains supply, and can cause unwanted noise in audio components. While this is not guaranteed to happen, be aware of the possible effects, including hum and distortion. If your mains supply is prone to introducing artifacts to the audio chain, this will be quite obvious to hear when no music is playing; if there is an audible hum from your speakers when Homeplugs are turned on, they should not be used. If you hear no difference, then you can use them with confidence.

Best

Rhod

Posted on: 09 May 2013 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Hi Rhod, yes I had noticed that, and given my expierience with EMC professionals, certain Ethernet over mains manufacturers, Ofcom, and the RSGB, if it was down to me I would remove that from FAQ, or at least make clear the issues of RF injection into the Naim equipment in using PLA devices.. Also I can state as an engineer and professional in this area that the statement 'in many cases.... provide an interference free network.' is misleading and incorrect . It is physically impossible to produce an interference free network using PLAs unless all mains infrastructure wiring and appliances are shielded or tightly twisted which is very much not the norm in the UK. The fact you might not notice the interference due to what you are doing is not the same as saying it is interference free... Hence why there is currently no agreement on standardising the technology with standards bodies currently despite strong industry lobbying.

But at the end of the day most of the devices are legal currently , and some improvements are being attempted in the technology to mitigate the side effects. The big issue is the unpredictability of the radiation and related issues due layout and differences in house wiring and the RF interference

Any way I am glad it's working for you, and indeed it was an aggravating 18 months when I was getting my issues resolved. Alas I know of people in more urban areas who have been unable to resolve this hence why I feel these devivces are immensely unfair.

Simon