NaimNet - are you there?

A typical NaimNet customer would never look at a forum for information about what is happening with their system - they have people to do that for them.

NaimNet is not a customer installed / maintained / serviceable / modifiable / programmable product and would normally be installed in conjunction with other whole house systems (lighting, climate control, security, cameras, intercoms etc.) and so the customers for the installs that it goes into may not even know what the NaimNet boxes look like or even where they are - they never need to even think about them at all unless they have a problem and then they call their installer and expect the installer to answer no matter what the time of day (or even what day it is - can't get "The Archers" omnibus on a Sunday afternoon ... the installer is expected to be available to fix it) ... no matter whether it's an issue with their internet being down, they've forgotten their WiFi password, they've dropped their iPad or they have guests coming for the week and they want to put a few more rooms onto the multiroom system.

It's a very different world to "HiFi" ...

Cheers

Phil

Phil,

I am planning to deploy a UnitiServe, ND5 XS, and a couple of UQ2s and/or NNP02s in my new house, all wired via Ethernet, all iPad controlled.  Is this a fully-qualified NaimNet scenario?  Or do I need to add other pieces?  I realize there can be vastly more complex scenarios, including lighting, security, Crestron pads, etc.

Also, can I hear my turntable, in sync, in all zones?  I suspect not without running analog signal lines alongside the Ethernet CAT-5.  If the NaimNet model includes analog support, is it standard or optional?

Thank you.

Nick

It is not possible to synchronise Uniti / ND products with NaimNet (they use very different protocols) and you cannot take a locally connected source on a Uniti or ND and stream that back out on the network either - for that you would need to use NaimNet in all rooms.

If you wish to deploy NNP02's then you will need to involve a NaimNet installer as there are other specifics that are required - the configuration of the system is not an end user operation and also the StreamNet protocol requires the use of fully IGMP compliant and properly configured switches ... because of this then the NaimNet product is only available as an installed system.

Best Regards

Phil Harris

Thank you, Phil,

If I understand you correctly, I would need to add NaimNet in my main listening room, too.  How can my main system be integrated into a NaimNet system, then?  What box takes the analog bits into the NaimNet system?  NS01, NS02, or NS03 maybe?

While I get that this is not a DIY proposition, a little less obscurity about the model might help a guy like me decide which direction to go a bit sooner.  At the moment, I do not see a clear benefit versus what I originally proposed using analog line-level wire from a distribution hub to Qute2s, if the primary goal is to be in sync in all zones from all possible sources in the main system.  Doing one's own thing in remote zones is a secondary, but still-important (to me) goal, too.

Nick

You could take an output from an NNP02 into your existing HiFi if you want that to be synchronised with your NaimNet system or from your server if you don't need it to be synchronised.

Any NaimNet installer would be able to advise you on your requirements and this is how NaimNet customers usually approach an install - they do not necessarily wish to know what piece of kit does what nor do they wish to need to know which is why they are dealt with completely differently to the normal Naim kit ... it's the same as if they were getting a Crestron or AMX system installed - they don't want to know what processors are running and what interfaces are required, just that it will do what they want it to do.

Cheers

Phil

Thanks Richard,

"It's a very different world to "HiFi" ... "

So it would seem, this was my hunch... to a certain extent.

Not sure I understand the "HiFi" comment...surely the method does not preclude the outcome? 

But it seems the NaimNet customer is also a different animal to the rest of us.

Jason. 

Thanks again, Phil.

It looks to me like there is no A>D attempted in a NaimNet system, except in the NNT01/02 Tuners.  If I want to feed and distribute analog into all of the zones, I would need to use a Line In at each zone amp.  Is that correct?

Sonos provides A>D>A but, IMHO, at the price of serious SQ degradation, compared with the all-analog alternative.

Nick

Yes there is a A to D conversion. All local sources (analog or digital) are available on the NaimNet network and can be played in synch. So your turntable included, you will need a line level feed. As Phil said, details have to been looked at with an installer.

That's OK ...

Phil

Each NaimNet amplifier has six local audio inputs - one optical S/PDIF, one electrical S/PDIF on an RCA, One "EIM" port (a NetStreams remote audio input and control port), two stereo audio inputs on RCAs and one stereo audio input on a DIN connector.

Any of these inputs can be selected to be played locally and the selected input is also made available on the network to be played in any other location and this applies to all of the amplifiers so a local input on one amp can be streamed out across the network and played elsewhere while that same amplifier is playing a completely different stream which could either be music from the server or another local input from a different amplifier.

Cheers

Phil

This is very good news, Phil.  Thank you.

The part I highlighted seems to get the most emphasis when discussing networked audio anywhere these days, and it is a neat trick, especially if you are setting up a B&B.  In my case, my top priority is one source played everywhere in perfect sync at the highest available quality, so I do not need to anchor myself in one place to hear fantastic music.  I believe Naim can and will deliver the goods, and, if I can convince my installer of my order of priorities, my chances of success look promising.

Thank you for your patience, and also for you advice, BTW, re stacking order:  the air between the CD, NAC, and NAP you recommended has paid dividends.

Nick

And, please allow me to admit, after all of the Heart and Foreigner songs are done playing in unison, all Hell can break loose. . . 

Nick

..just to clarify on the above, that means that - say - the amplifier in the kitchen can be playing the local input from a satellite receiver that is attached to the living room amplifier while the living room amplifier is playing a stream of music from the server or a local input from another amplifier in another room.

It isn't possible to have - say - the kitchen amplifier playing the local input from a satellite receiver that is attached to the living room amplifier while the living room amplifier is playing a different local input on the living room amplifier.

Cheers

Phil

I'm the guy that bought the second-hand NaimNet stuff. 

I haven't yet got the system up-and-running but believe I have found a certified installer who can do the job and am confident that it will be OK.  I expect that I'll have to ditch and replace some of the second-hand NetStreams stuff that you need for NaimNet functionality but I'm not expecting any difficulty with the Naim equiment itself.  The room amplifiers may need software upgrades but I can't imagine that Naim would ever produce anything of the "use once then throw away" variety.

Just now I'm taking a financial pause after some heavy expenditure on building work but I hope to get the installation done reasonably soon.  I will report back after. 

My only real criticism of NaimNet is the precious attitude that seems to go with it.  I ditched my Naim dealers of twenty years (and probably won't go back) when they got sniffy about the mere suggestion of second-hand equipment.  The same thing is implicit in Phil's "different world from hi fi" comment and the idea that you can't have NaimNet unless you're so stupidly rich as not to know what the boxes look like.  It is, after all, just hi fi linked to internet protocol, albeit better sounding than Sonos.

I can understand the need for licensed installers and am perfectly happy to get one to do the job but in my humble opinion, someone who gets an installer to install a system like NaimNet without attempting to understand how it works is as big a fool as someone who tries to do it all himself.  I happen to work in the yachtbuilding sector and disputes about AV systems are rife, not because the systems themselves don't work but because the installers are often left to set them up in whatever complicated way they like and the owners can't operate them.

My suspicion is that NaimNet gets little attention because NaimNet 2.0 is in the pipeline.  This may not be NaimNet at all but an upgrading of other Naim streaming products that makes makes consumer-friendly multi-room possible (Sonos to Naim hi fi standard), or it may be a less esoteric version of the current NaimNet, not inextricably packaged with NetStreams and capable of more straightforward integration in whole-house control systems (Crestron, Control 4 etc) albeit still needing an experienced contractor to do it.

As I say I will report when I have got my system going.

My local dealer truly specializes in very high end audio and video installations for customers as Phil has characterized.  I've had this discussion with their installers.  The customers do not care how it works, only that when the push a button that it DOES work.  Believe it or not, there ARE customers like this, and it's a special dealer who can keep them happy and coming back for upgrades.

Hi,

I'm afraid I must take a little issue with the accusation of "the precious attitude that seems to go with it" - this is *NOT* a system that is intended to be user installed, it requires specifically configured switches and a fully certified network infrastructure. It also requires setup software that is provided by NetStreams *ONLY* to persons that have completed their training courses and are registered with them (or us) as certified installers and neither we nor NetStreams are able to provide support to persons who are not certified installers.

This is not us being "precious" with the product but ensuring that when it is installed it works correctly.

I have no problem with you buying second hand NaimNet product and having it installed by a qualified installer but experience has shown that in the instances where the customer has been left a copy of the setup software and left to themselves "because they asked for it" then it has not gone well.

Best

Phil Harris

Phil we have had exchanges before, both within the forum and by email outside.  I have always been plain and direct in saying that I'm not trying to do a DIY job on NaimNet so there's no need to go on about that.  I'm very happy to use an accredited installer and will do so, not just because I understand the need for a true professional but also because I recognise that it's the only way that Naim can control the quality of its product and get a proper return on its R&D. 

My criticism is that, if your dealers and accredited installers are turning up their noses at people like me who want to re-use second hand equipment, then you're both selling your products short and under-estimating your market. 

Professionally I deal with a lot of rich people who throw stupid money at stupid things and who don't call their certified installer if they press the button and the curtains don't open - they just sue.  I'm sure there's a market for people like that but there are also discerning people of lesser means who know what they want but want it cost-effectively and who are not only willing to get involved in the process but even keen to do so.  Subscribers to this forum, for example.  People who are interested in the technology and may even give you feedback on day-to-day functionality and assist with future product development.  Tell their friends about it.

I know that your products are built to last, which is why there's a healthy second-hand market for the whole range other than NaimNet, and there's no reason why that shouldn't apply to NaimNet as well.  The second-hand market does your reputation no harm at all - selling old kit has been an important factor in my own upgrade path, as it has been, I'm sure, for many others as well.  All I'm saying is, by all means stand by your "certified installers only" principle but please encourage your certified installers to support the product through more than one owner, rather treating a second-hand buyer like a pariah because he wants the best for his budget and might even be clever enough to recognise a NaimNet box when he sees one.  Two of your installers have let me down in this respect - one who had been my dealer for twenty years but who is unlikely to see me again, and another who refused on initial contact to have anything to do with second-hand kit.  I'm less insulted than bewildered by this attitude and can only hope that it's an exception and I've now found a down-to-earth installer who has faith-enough in the product to re-configure the second-hand stuff I have got.

I don't want to be a public ranter so this will be my last post on the subject of NaimNet, apart from the promised report when I am eventually up-and-running.  Phil you may contact me privately by email if you wish.    

Not trying to be entirely ironic, but it might make sense for Naim to appoint only architects who might then collaborate with the installers THEY choose, to deliver the concept in its highest form, integrated perfectly into the site.

Seriously, I had some heating and AC customizations done to my spec by a reputable installer once.  I would have spent wiser to add an architect, or an engineer to get a better than workman-like result.

Can of worms, perhaps.  My dad, a home-builder, never found an architect (he could afford) to improve on his own workman-like designs.

Thanks, all.

Nick

+1 here on all of that.

I, too, do not wish to be controversial but I really resent having to pay good money to get someone to do something I can do better and more conveniently myself.

It is my kit to blow up if I want to, in exactly they same way that if I take a soldering iron to my amp, I do so at my own risk.

I have a Digilinx system at home and have bought some new Naimnet stuff precisely because, although happy with Netsreams for Radio 4 while I have breakfast or am shaving, I want better audio for serious listening. 

I share the experience re certified installers and I am afraid that I suspect that much of the mystery is simply not so much mystery as a conspiracy against the layman: there is obfuscation by a cluster of people trying to protect their monopoly and margins. As others have correctly surmised, the average Naimnet customer is likely to be even wealthier than the average Naim customer ... I think the dealers and installers want to keep the best and easiest fruit for themselves. 

It is, of course, true that most of the target clientele simply want it to work and call the installer when it doesn't but many might feel rather patronised that they are not trusted with full control over their own systems. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that they have made their money in IT and other technological fields and are happy (and competent) to tinker. I for one, would happily sign an indemnity. YMMV - I would not dream of servicing my car, for example, because I'm not competent to do so; others might because they are.

To be fair to Naim, I think it is Netstreams which controls the use of the software and holds the distribution of the licence close.

But it really is not anywhere near as hard as is claimed to configure this system. It is not for a novice perhaps, but there are plenty of people conversant with IP and networking who could quite happily work with it. Dare I say more conversant with IP than many AV installers, who have often only been on the NS training course, absurdly entitled the "University"? And most of the issues I've encountered with Digilinx are IP-related, not audio. And they are not difficult compared to, say, setting up videoconferencing.

I have looked over the shoulder of my guy while he has been doing the configuration and the set up software is driven by a simple wizard. There have been a couple of occasions when debugging has been necessary but, more often than not, I have solved the problem rather than him.    

Another example, which I think is quite scandalous, is (at least with NS dealers) that you will be told you have to use a Netstreams switch or else your system will be at risk of not working because of flooding. In reality, you can use any of a number of (natch) cheaper Dell (and other) managed switches on which anybody halfway competent at network management can configure the snooping and multicast settings. I doesn't take more than a half an hour, so even if you have to pay someone, you should look carefully at the price differential.   Alternatively, I suspect you are paying a hefty premium for a standard OEM switch put in a new box and then pre-configured.  

In short, while the Naimnet stuff is good, the attitude towards paying punters could do with some rethinking, although some of the problem might need to be laid at NS' door rather than Naim's.

Peter