Refurbishing kitchen - induction hob concerns

We too are shortly having a new kitchen; fortunately we have mains gas hence I am steering well clear of any electric hob, primarily because I can't get on with them whilst cooking (controllability mainly).

My parents have an induction hob.  I find it no quicker than the ceramic hob they replaced.  They also had to change all their pot/pans for induction capable ones.  All in all an expensive sideways move in HiFi upgrade parlance...

I would not pay too much attention to the EMF issue.  Do you use a mobile phone???

The no-risk-no-way safety 'elf's will always find something to publish dire warnings of imminent death threats.

Induction hobs do what it says on the box,  “induction”.  This means they use EMF to transfer energy – in this case into cooking pans.  The EFM is a magnetic field, it has a very limited range (like a few cm) it does not pollute your kitchen, turn milk sour, cook the budgie or kill your hifi.  

All the Swiss www operating advise is simply good practice.  It makes sense to have the right size pan on the induction “ring” for example.

Induction hobs can (might) affect a pacemaker - if misused, but no more so & possibly less than a microwave & for sure considerably less than the security gates at airports & such places.

My mother has a pacemaker & she is still alive & cooking, she took advise from her doctor & the pacemaker 6 month scheduled service peeps.  All said no problems,  but just be sure to have the rings off when no pan is on the hob.  

Induction is the cooking method of the foreseeable future. 

They are excellent in what they do, the cleanest & easiest of all hobs to use, controlablity is almost as good as gas, significantly better than electric hob. They are more efficient (sorry SKYDriver - the 1 litre water boiling test has proven to be 30 to 50% faster for the same watts - every time)  

I really would never go back to any other method - and that is all I hear from the many other people who have changed. 

We went to induction from gas when we moved to a house with no mains supply - it is fantastic and I for one would not go back. 

Skdriver - not sure which one your parents went for, but they do vary a bit IME - our Miele is far better than the one of "unknown origin" in a house we once rented. Good ones are far more powerful (thus faster) and more controllable than any gas hob I've ever tried.

Chose ceramic over induction for our new kitchen. I prefer the smoother heat application and cooling. Unless you have very heavy expensive pans induction hobs at low heats tend to be rather on/off. Ceramic means some heat held in the hselfs self so a more 'gradual'  warming/cooling. personal preferences I guess.

Bruce

As an engineer who used to teach thermodynamic stuff, for the sake of my sleep pattern,  I really need to clarify my point about watts  "They are more efficient ................ the 1 litre water boiling test has proven to be 30 to 50% faster for the same watts - every time)"  

It takes exactly the same number of watts to heat 1 litre of water, no matter gas, hot hob electric, atomic pile or induction - provided its in thermal isolation.

The problem is the heat (watts) wasted the by-pass of gas heat especially & other methods to a lesser degree. Then there is the energy required to heat up the mass of solid hot hobs & the various bits of iron with a gas cooker.  

Where an induction hob scores over the others is it heats only the pan & its contents. The heat loss from an induction pan boiling test is only from the pan & the water & the water vapour (steam) loss to atmosphere.  It has no by-pass loss as such, the hob surface only gets hot from the heat of the pan & as that is ceramic/glass it is very low.

Only on the naim forum...

Well one's male, the other female, I assume.

Sorry, been in the knife draw tonight.

I went for an induction hob and i'm still typing away to tell the tale & family and guests who have been here are still alive...only because they didn't eat what i cooked! 

Even we have induction hob, they are definitely more Energy efficient and stylish with some advance features like flexible cooking zones, timers and child safety locks. But they are a way expensive and you need to invest in new pans. As presently you are involved in the refurbishing of your kitchen, check out this article. http://voices.yahoo.com/5-top-...itchen-12142052.html

Thank-you to all of you for your well reasoned and informative replies and sorry for disappearing but I just spent a few days in County Cork with no internet connection!  I am somewhat reassured by the fact so many of you have induction hobs and have lived to tell the tale!! so we will have a good look at both and make a decision based on that.  This is the first kitchen I have ever designed and the other surprise to me has been how much built in appliances cost - for example I've been looking at Neff microwaves for cabinet mounting.  The one that looks vaguely like the oven we already have is over £500 and that's on the internet!  Shocking to me given that my last microwave which is still going strong after around 4 years use cost £39 from Sainsburys!!

I didn't even know you could spend that much on a microwave - that's Naim territory!

Jonathan

When I met my GF I was introduced to Le Creuset cookware, and has improved my cooking dramatically.

It's on a ceramic, rather than induction, but the cast iron pans eliminate that on/off you get when trying to simmer in lighter pans.

Maybe it's the Naim of cookware, as you gradually add more bits, and should last at least my lifetime. (My GF has already had her set of pans for over 25yrs)

John

At least using Le Creuset you don't have to go to gym anymore?

Do I look like I am built for the gym? 

Figuring out what do in the Le Creuset for your visit. 

John

As someone who has given my wife 7 brand new kitchens during our 36 years of married life (I have fitted many for customers as well) if I had not had mains gas then I would have recommended bottle gas infact I still do occasionally but an induction hob is certainly the way to go if gas of any sort is not an option. Yes you do need to check your pots and pans will work but It may persuade you if I add that the UK was only 6 hours of running out of gas last year! 

As far as running out of gas is concerned, it's probably moot, as so much of our electricity generation now (apparently) relies on gas as a fuel source...so *if* we did run out, would the National Grid have been able to maintain a decent supply?

I'm guessing you mean this one: 

If so, that's the model i had fitted into Howdens Kitchens unit built for their own brand of kitchen appliances. Despite the dimensions being correct on paper, we still had to remove some plaster behind the microwave as the unit is flush and also remove part of the cabinet for it to fit properly. The good thing is that it vents at the top and out from the slot above the door. It's working well so far but you really need a good kitchen fitter and between the pair of us, we eventually got the microwave in place.

Rakkit,

That's the one although quite why Neff had to make it so big I have no idea!  It's a lovely looking thing but sounds like fitting was a hassle.  Glad it's working well though - it is lovely!

Jonathan

Raking the lawn even...

The issue of EMF is just one aspect of induction. Personally, I think it raises concerns but the more crucial question is in how far food cooked via induction is harmful or not. When we were faced with the choice I looked into the subject a bit. I had read quite a bit about the health risks of food prepared via microwaves, which is a different set of issues but in essence the two have one thing in common, both alter the molecular structure of foods substantially. In my research I came across a swiss food scientist, Dr. Hans Ulrich Hertel, who had done a study on the impact microwaved food has on the human body. I actually called him up one day to discuss induction hobs and the effect they have on food and whether he felt that its a safe way of preparing food. He said that under no circumstances would he use induction as the effects were likely to be similar to those of food prepared using microwaves. Intuitively I felt the same. We ended up buying a normal ceramic cooking element.

Below is a summary of his background and study:

“Dr. Hans Ulrich Hertel, who is now retired, worked as a food scientist for many years with one of the major Swiss food companies that do business on a global scale. A few years ago, he was fired from his job for questioning certain processing procedures that denatured the food.



In 1991, he and a Lausanne University professor published a research paper indicating that food cooked in microwave ovens could pose a greater risk to health than food cooked by conventional means. An article also appeared in issue 19 of the Journal Franz Weber in which it was stated that the consumption of food cooked in microwave ovens had cancerous effects on the blood. The research paper itself followed the article. On the cover of the magazine there was a picture of the Grim Reaper holding a microwave oven in one of his hands.



Dr. Hertel was the first scientist to conceive and carry out a quality clinical study on the effects microwaved nutrients have on the blood and physiology of the human body. His small but well controlled study showed the degenerative force produced in microwave ovens and the food processed in them. The scientific conclusion showed that microwave cooking changed the nutrients in the food; and, changes took place in the participants' blood that could cause deterioration in the human system. Hertel's scientific study was done along with Dr. Bernard H. Blanc of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology and the University Institute for Biochemistry. 



In intervals of two to five days, the volunteers in the study received one of the following food variants on an empty stomach:

1. 1.          Raw milk;


2. 2.          The same milk conventionally cooked;


3. 3.          Pasteurized milk;


4. 4.          The same raw milks cooked in a microwave oven;


5. 5.          Raw vegetables from an organic farm; (6) the same vegetables cooked    conventionally;


6. 6.          The same vegetables frozen and defrosted in a microwave oven; and


7. 7.          The same vegetables cooked in the microwave oven.




Once the volunteers were isolated, blood samples were taken from every volunteer immediately before eating. Then, blood samples were taken at defined intervals after eating from the above milk or vegetable preparations.



Significant changes were discovered in the blood samples from the intervals following the foods cooked in the microwave oven. These changes included a decrease in all hemoglobin and cholesterol values, especially the ratio of HDL (good cholesterol) and LDL (bad cholesterol) values. Lymphocytes (white blood cells) showed a more distinct short-term decrease following the intake of microwaved food than after the intake of all the other variants. Each of these indicators pointed to degeneration. Additionally, there was a highly significant association between the amount of microwave energy in the test foods and the luminous power of luminescent bacteria exposed to serum from test persons who ate that food. This led Dr. Hertel to the conclusion that such technically derived energies may, indeed, be passed along to man inductively via eating microwaved food.



According to Dr. Hertel, "Leukocytosis, which cannot be accounted for by normal daily deviations, is taken very seriously by hemotologists. Leukocytes are often signs of pathogenic effects on the living system, such as poisoning and cell damage. The increase of leukocytes with the microwaved foods were more pronounced than with all the other variants. It appears that these marked increases were caused entirely by ingesting the microwaved substances. This process is based on physical principles and has already been confirmed in the literature. The apparent additional energy exhibited by the luminescent bacteria was merely an extra confirmation. There is extensive scientific literature concerning the hazardous effects of direct microwave radiation on living systems. It is astonishing, therefore, to realize how little effort has been taken to replace this detrimental technique of microwaves with technology more in accordance with nature.

Technically produced microwaves are based on the principle of alternating current. Atoms, molecules, and cells hit by this hard electromagnetic radiation are forced to reverse polarity 1-100 billion times a second. There are no atoms, molecules or cells of any organic system able to withstand such a violent, destructive power for any extended period of time, not even in the low energy range of milliwatts. Of all the natural substances - which are polar - the oxygen of water molecules reacts most sensitively. This is how microwave cooking heat is generated - friction from this violence in water molecules. Structures of molecules are torn apart, molecules are forcefully deformed, called structural isomerism, and thus become impaired in quality. This is contrary to conventional heating of food where heat transfers convectionally from without to within. Cooking by microwaves begins within the cells and molecules where water is present and where the energy is transformed into frictional heat. In addition to the violent frictional heat effects, called thermic effects, there are also athermic effects which have hardly ever been taken into account. These athermic effects are not presently measurable, but they can also deform the structures of molecules and have qualitative consequences. For example the weakening of cell membranes by microwaves is used in the field of gene altering technology. Because of the force involved, the cells are actually broken, thereby neutralizing the electrical potentials, the very life of the cells, between the outer and inner side of the cell membranes. Impaired cells become easy prey for viruses, fungi and other microorganisms. The natural repair mechanisms are suppressed and cells are forced to adapt to a state of energy emergency - they switch from aerobic to anaerobic respiration. Instead of water and carbon dioxide, the cell poisons hydrogen peroxide and carbon monoxide are produced." The same violent deformations that occur in our bodies, when we are directly exposed to radar or microwaves, also occur in the molecules of foods cooked in a microwave oven. This radiation results in the destruction and deformation of food molecules. Microwaving also creates new compounds, called radiolytic compounds, which are unknown fusions not found in nature. Radiolytic compounds are created by molecular decomposition - decay - as a direct result of radiation.

Microwave oven manufacturers insist that microwaved and irradiated foods do not have any significantly higher radiolytic compounds than do broiled, baked or other conventionally cooked foods. The scientific clinical evidence presented here has shown that this is simply a lie. In America, neither universities nor the federal government have conducted any tests concerning the effects on our bodies from eating microwaved foods. Isn't that a bit odd? They're more concerned with studies on what happens if the door on a microwave oven doesn't close properly. Once again, common sense tells us that their attention should be centered on what happens to food cooked inside a microwave oven. Since people ingest this altered food, shouldn't there be concern for how the same decayed molecules will affect our own human biological cell structure? Industry's action to hide the truth.



As soon as Doctors Hertel and Blanc published their results, the authorities reacted. A powerful trade organization, the Swiss Association of Dealers for Electro-apparatuses for Households and Industry, known as FEA, struck swiftly in 1992. They forced the President of the Court of Seftigen, Canton of Bern, to issue a "gag order" against Drs. Hertel and Blanc. In March 1993, Dr. Hertel was convicted for "interfering with commerce" and prohibited from further publishing his results. However, Dr. Hertel stood his ground and fought this decision over the years.



Not long ago, this decision was reversed in a judgment delivered in Strasbourg, Austria, on August 25, 1998. The European Court of Human Rights held that there had been a violation of Hertel's rights in the 1993 decision. The European Court of Human Rights also ruled that the "gag order" issued by the Swiss court in 1992 against Dr. Hertel, prohibiting him from declaring that microwave ovens are dangerous to human health, was contrary to the right to freedom of expression. In addition, Switzerland was ordered to pay Dr. Hertel compensation.

“

TP, do you really believe this ? The serious studies that have looked at food chemistry following different cooking methods come out largely in favour of microwaving ; bacon for example (my underlining in the abstract below) :

Detection of mutagenic activity in human urine following fried pork or bacon meals

http://www.sciencedirect.com/s...pii/0304383582900945

Abstract

RE:  ....... the more crucial question is in how far food cooked via induction is harmful or not.

Induction does not cook food,  induction is simply a magnetic field that heats the steel or cast iron pan. The food is cooked by the heat from the pan,  just like it does with a gas or electric. 

The scaremongering about induction cooking is pure bunkum, folk lore, it is in the same category as black cats bring luck & covering mirrors in a lightening storm

Jan has it all covered.  

Exactly. Thanks Mike, I should have pointed that out.