Newly bought Qute: Moderate sound quality (mid/high range) - any hints?
Posted by: M_B on 20 January 2011
Greetings. I'm seeking opinion and advise:
Bought the Qute 2wks ago, replacing my old multi-box-system.
OLD Setup (all wired, using good digi./anal. cables): NAS -> External DAC -> Nait 5i -> Virgo II
NEW Setup (wireless via router): NAS -> Qute -> Virgo II
Blind-testing comparison results (vs OLD):
NEW bass-range: Surprisingly, significantly more precise, more to the point / "analytical"
NEW: midh/high-range: Quite "dull" and "washed-out". Sounds really not good, in particular at low noise, and when song part w/o bass
Of course, I'm aware the Qute and the powerful big Audio Physic Virgo II are not a perfect fit. I never hear at superloud party levels so thought it's ok. Before purchase, I did same blind-testing at home with a couple of folks using a demonstration model Qute borrowed from the dealer (this device had run for a couple of months at the dealers place). Results were similar in direction, but differences hardly distinguishable - no real preference for one or the other setup among testers. So I was fine and bought the Qute (a brandnew model out of the box, not the demonstration model).
I did not changed loudspeaker position. Always using same songs, FLAC only. Qute settings always: Large Speakers, no loudness, ground switch to chassis (any settings change here only downgraded sound).
Re the wireless discussion I can't believe this would impact sound quality in this way (more about data transmission - either music would really stop playing or interrupt for a sec more or less abruptly - nothing of this is happening).
-> Any idea why the mid/high-range sound is bad?
Don't think the device is broken; maybe it's due to the mysterious burn-in? In the manual Naim even states this could take up to a month (so far I think my Qute played music for 8-10h in total).
-> Is my current "sound pattern" a typical sign of the burn-in or how does the lack of burn-in sounds typically? Or burn-in - if any - is just not existing or no to that extent? Any other ideas?
Thanks. Curious on your thoughts!
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by pcstockton
What were your previous pre/power?
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by Peter_RN
M_B……….That’s nowhere near long enough to form any real opinion on its sound quality. When we bought ours I sent our amps for service and put the Qute in the main system. First impression, a bit bass light/loose else OK. I ran it for 5 weeks 12-14hrs a day until our amps returned at which point it was so good we added an nDAC (which made it better still) and it is still in the main system. Suggest you just leave it running for a good while yet.
Regards
Peter
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by Julian H
I wouldnt judge it for a while yet [its only 2 weeks old] but just check the speaker type is "large" and "loudness" is off which could affect what you are hearing. Also, a UQ drove my SL2's quite beyond expectations so I wouldnt worry too much about your speaker mismatch unless they are particularly difficult beasts [I see they are quite sensitive though].
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by M_B
All, thanks for your quick replies so far. Fantastic community.
pcstockton - Nait 5i was my previous (integrated amp).
Peter, Julian: Yes, but strange it's the bass who seems to perform better and mid/high being bad, isn't it? Can somebody explain how this burn-in works, technically? Are some electronic parts getting up-to-speed like people in the gym or school over time? I noticed only few manufacturers mention burn-in at all, but Naim really puts an emphasis on it - do they use special untrained electronical forces? ;-)
Maybe it's just not capable of driving the Virgos (although demonstration model seemed to do it).
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by Develyn
Why not try turning loudness on?
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by M_B
Develyn - as I wrote: Qute settings always: Large Speakers, no loudness, ground switch to chassis (any settings change here only downgraded sound).
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by Julian H
Don't worry about it then. It will come good in time. Technically, I have not a clue why burn in happens but it does.
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by Develyn
oops, sorry.
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by Peter_RN
M_B……….I certainly cannot tell you why Naim products sound better over time; I can only assure you that they do. We have had Naim amps for more than 33years now and it has always been this way. Just let it run, leave the radio running if nothing else; it just needs time. If you ensure you register it with Naim your warranty is extended to 5 years, this should give you peace of mind at least.
If in awhile you still think there is a problem, then return to your dealer for another opinion, or have a chat with him now; he has an interest in ensuring the unit is OK.
Regards
Peter
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by Paul Stephenson
Make sure the ground position is in the right position on the rear, do you have the correct speaker settings , is loudness control on? Run in really does take sometime.
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by pcstockton
Reference:
Can somebody explain how this burn-in works, technically?
That is like asking how God works.
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by Jan-Erik Nordoen
The following is from Jeff Dorgay who publishes Tone Audio magazine :
Actually, there is some very hard science behind equipment break in. Capacitors take the longest, but it depends on what type of gear you have. Most tubes, resistors, wire, etc. dont take all that long, usually a few days will do. It's all about the molecules in the component reorganizing themselves and actually burning a path through.
This can be seen on electron microscope images of various components at different stages of use. Most caps are somewhere in the 20-50 hour break in area, but some gear using very expensive (usually Teflon) caps can take up to 3-400 hours to break in.
The reason for this is the Teflon dialectric is much more dense molecularly (and a much better insulator than polypropolene or polystyrene), so it takes much longer to break in. Some mfrs will actually put hours on the bench before they ship to you, while some will just ship it to you brand spanking new.
My C-J ACT2 preamp and Premier 350 power amps are full of big teflon capacitors and they took forever to sound good. They sounded really stiff out of the box. But right around 300 hours was the magic number and from 300 -500 hours they really started to sound great and there was no change after 500 hours. Every piece of gear I have reviewed with teflon caps, whether its a preamp or a set of speakers that has them in the crossover takes 3-500 hours and I set a stopwatch on a component when I start the review process.
On the other hand, we are reviewing a new Mac C220 preamp and it has no exotic parts inside. Unboxed it on friday, played music through it on repeat all weekend and by Monday it was right as rain. Was not as big a shift from right out of the box to broken in.
All depends on the components used. Same thing with speakers. Some woofer surrounds take forever to loosen up, though typically again 50-100 hours seems to be the magic number, if the mfr HASN"T put hours on them first. I have heard that the diamond tweeters in the Avalons and some B&W speakers take forever to settle in.
The rest of the thread can be found on the Steve Hoffman Music Forums site
jan
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by Jan-Erik Nordoen
M_B,
The midrange in the Qute is voiced a little differently from the Nait 5i. Softer and more fluid in presentation, it can appear as washed out at first when compared to earlier Naim gear. Give it time. I had a Qute on review for a four-week period and when I went back to the Nait 5 that it had temporarily replaced, it was clear to me that the Qute's midrange presentation was more true to life. Both my Nait and my 82/250 give the impression of a slight lift in the 2,500 - 3,000 Hz range, but not the Qute.
jan
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by David
Hi
My Qute really started to sing after about 4 weeks, give it a chance. It will sound a lot better after a few weeks
David
Posted on: 20 January 2011 by M_B
All, thanks for your valued opinions so far. Really helpful and re-assuring.
Jan, the midrange sound characteristics is exactly what we felt. Just that right now with the new Qute it's not only a bit different but really dull - hope is that will change *fingers crossed.
Posted on: 21 January 2011 by realhifi
The Qute is not dull. Really beautiful tonal colors from many different sources is what I am hearing (after a couple months or so of leaving it on the whole time). It is one sweet heart of an amp but your speakers are a very demanding load and I would think the 5i would have been borderline as far as power and the Qute...not quite enough. Qute with more power is what you need with those speakers.
This from Stereophiles measurements of it:
"The Audio Physic Virgo is a reasonably hard load for an amplifier to drive, as shown by its plots of impedance magnitude and phase against frequency (fig.1). Not only does the impedance drop below 4 ohms for pretty much the entire midrange, but the phase angle is also moderately high in the upper bass and low treble. The changes in impedance with frequency, however, are small. The "saddle" in the magnitude trace at 27Hz indicates a low tuning frequency for the large port. The wrinkle at 230Hz is probably due to a cabinet resonance of some kind."
Tough load and a three way to boot. My guess is that the Qute has more than it can handle.
Posted on: 21 January 2011 by M_B
realhifi - thanks. Very interesting points. As said I was concerned about this before and I am ware it's not a perfect fit. On the other hand two other hifi guys told me Virgo II is a big one, yes, but reasonably well behaving for its size.
Just wanted to go all-in-one-box AND keep my lovely speakers, plus I have a small room and no party. That said this was the reason I took the demonstration model at home before purchase and results were reasonably well - sound quality was perceived *nearly* at par overall.
I did look for a-Qute-with-more power but nothing around (Uniti I didn't want as not willing to pay the CD). Well, after all, let's see what the burn-in brings... Thanks again.
Posted on: 25 January 2011 by M_B
Greetings - I assume if I let my Qute play FLACs from my NAS while putting the Qute on mute this will still fully count as "burn-in" of the Qute (although no loudspeakers involved), correct?
Posted on: 25 January 2011 by pcstockton
Reference:
if I let my Qute play FLACs from my NAS while putting the Qute on mute this will still fully count as "burn-in" of the Qute
I dont know how to say this other than..... if you dont like it out if the box, NO amount of burn in will fix this.
If it sounds so bad that you must mute it, rather than enjoy the music, during the "burn-in" process, you should probably return it or buy new speakers.
-Patrick
Posted on: 25 January 2011 by M_B
pcstockton: Thanks - think I need to clarify. :-)
I have long work schedules - 8AM to 8PM. During my absense I'd prefer not to bother the neighbours with my music all day long. And when I come home turning on the music also is not an option as our little baby requires sleep (and I don't like headphones). So, remaining time to listen to my Qute is weekend only. That's why I want to leverage any time in-between to speed up potential burn-in via play+mute (not b/c the music sounds THAT bad)?
Posted on: 25 January 2011 by pcstockton
Rather than mute it, why not simply turn it down significantly. If you think burn-in matters significantly, I cant see why you would want to avoid much of the electrical path that needs "burning".
Posted on: 25 January 2011 by Tog
I would simply listen to your Qute, ignore the desire to "burn in" and enjoy the ride as its sound mellows.
Tog
Posted on: 28 January 2011 by realhifi
Agree with pcstockton on this one. If you don't like it now you just may not like it. From the very first time I plugged one in I knew it was a winner. Yes, it does get a bit better but it is NOT night and day. It simply sings it's guts out right off the bat as far as I have seen.
Posted on: 28 January 2011 by realhifi
PS. I still think it's the speakers. Too much speaker, too little amp. That can do a lot more to screw things up than a lot of folks think.
Posted on: 28 January 2011 by dzambolaja
I second - it must be speakers. UnitiQute, just as the slightly more powerfull Uniti, have low to moderate amp power reserve of their power supplies at less than 300VA and that is not sufficient for most but very efficient speakers.
Also check if your speakers are designed for bi-wiring. If so - you have a conceptual mismatch there.
Anyway, give it at least 2 months for burn in. This is how long it took my Uniti to open up mids and highs!
