why Naim not joining the DSD streaming wagon?

I guess  it's because Naim don't (yet?) perceive/hear a sonic benefit in DSD, and given the product development time to deliver DSD effectively may well be considered uneconomic. Naim are not renowned for jumping on the fad bandwagon unless they realize a sonic benefit which IMO adds to their brand value.

I am in the same camp, sure delta sigma DACs do sound different from multi-bit DACs, but better? Nah not in my expierience. But I am sure if Naim found a way of making DSD render to match or even better its multi bit architecture, we might just see this in the fabled reference DAC, with subsequent trickle down.

Simon

DSD is way overhyped.

I was using dCS DSD units since the late nineties for quite a while in studios and at home as well, Accuphase DSD players too, made hundreds of recordings with different Korg DSD recorders too but an exceptional recording can be as good or even better in PCM than in DSD. The way how the engineer uses, selects and places the microphones, mic preamps and the talent and experience of the recording engineer is way more important than the format itself. 

We need more highres material not more formats! We will end up with a replay of the sacd/dvda war, and that did not give music lovers anything good.

That nails it succinctly for me. Also interesting that of the two losers, DVD-A came second because the labels were obsessed with copy protection. This is the priority and I don't think the industry needs much of an excuse to wander off in several diluted directions to sell yet more copies of DSOTM, Avalon and Brothers In Arms, rather than develop an accessible, credible HiRes product with a long term future. If DSC can be transcoded/converted/rendered/approximated/copied/whatever to PCM, which it evidently can be, I'll take it. If Naim (or whoever I'm buying from at the appropriate time) make streamers which have additional DSD capability then I'll have a dabble no doubt. But the technology will have to come to me. And for the reasons Claus touches on, I kind of hope it doesn't.

I was very high on DSD a few years ago, and bought a Korg MR1000 to record vinyl.  Each record is saved in a folder with two files - sides A and B - using 128x DSD (5.6MHz, or twice the resolution of SACD). They sound great when I play them back using the recorder's own built-in DAC. They sounded even better when, a couple of years ago, I demo'ed the then brand new MyTek DSD Dac. But there were also a couple of downsides.

First these 128x DSD files are gigantic, and very cumbersome to deal with. Second, while my jazz recordings sounded beautiful, there was something about my rock recordings that bugged me. I thought they sounded kind of "polished", and had lost some of their edginess and intensity. Admittedly, this was a subtle thing, and Mrs. Hook did not always hear it the same way asI did.

In the end, I did not keep the MyTek, and the reason was simple:  24/88.2 FLAC conversions using Korg's Audiogate software also sounded great. At that time, I was using my Naim DAC (not my current NDS) for comparisons.  Mrs. Hook could easily pick a FLAC vs. DSD file in our blind tests, but she did not really express a strong preference.  She thought that most recordings sounded a bit nicer with DSD, but she conceded that several recordings, especially live ones, sounded more "realistic" with FLAC.

It was a close call, but in the end, I am glad to have settled on 24/88.2 FLAC as my standard for recording vinyl. The file size is manageable -- they stream easily and sound wonderful when played back through my NDS. But I am by no means anti-DSD, and if Naim does someday decide to add DSD decoding to their DACs and network players, then I think it would be well received.  But I certainly don't think it is essential, and I also think most people would agree there are much higher priorities for their developers and engineers to focus on.

ATB.

Hook

PS - For those who are into DSD, you might want to check out the new Korg DS-DAC-10 ($550 USD).  USB connectivity, Cirrus Logic CS4398, 2.8/5.6 MHz DSD and/or PCM up to 24/192. Seems like a lot of dac for the money...

After reading thru several replies above, I notice quite an important difference between this and the so call format wars. Since there really is no war involved here. It's merely a progress which includes a different format into the same spectrum. For every new DSD DAC and streamer on the market, they all play the full range of PCM files on top of the DSDs. So, what I'm suggesting isn't for Naim or anybody to gave up something for another, but simply to expand and add. I do not see why this is a problem. It's simply adding BD playback, but not saying you need to gave up DVD disk in your storeroom?

Naim did spend some time developing an in house SACD player.  Ultimately there were aspects of DSD that were a concern and the decision was made to stick with PCM at the time.  Naim is releasing more and more of their back catalogue in higher resolution 24bit, right up to 192kHz.  The SQ is fantastic so why confuse matters?

Then again, if DSD is really important to you, remember that the Naim DAC-V1 can play DXD master files, so essentially DSD and PCM are covered, albeit within the next generation audio format...

Richard. honestly ,you make it sound like your customers are the babies thats crying for a new toy and that you're given them a rubber duck (DAC-V1) to keep them from annoying you. 

Other companies such as Weiss, Luxman, and Chord have been given good feedback by their loyal customers and are now joining the DSD wagon with new products and existing upgrades to historical lines. I think Naim should be glad they are getting constructive feedback as well. Instead of customers which simply sell their Naim product and move on. 

What is this DSD "wagon"? Who is on it? Can anyone make a list of recordings that have been recorded and mastered in DSD in the last decade? It is surely a very small list.  Can anyone make a list of the producers who are recording, editing and mastering exclusively in DSD? An even smaller list I think. How about a list of any non-niche record label using the format? 

we are all in the Hi-end musically market thinking it's a norm. But in reality, majority of the population would be happy and please with an standard MP3 file via Iphone or Galaxy S4 playback. They would be happy to blutooth into an small desk top speaker with internal amplification as their main source of music. Hence, what we are involved in is also an "niche" spectrum arena. Majority of the world population cannot hear or believe theres a difference cables provide to the quality of the music. 

Do we simply rule out the possibility because big time labels aren't there yet? 5 years ago, how many big labels had 24/192 recordings for download?

I think you can confidently rule out the possibility that any big time label will ever use DSD to record, mix and master in. Apart from anything else, it is an extremely difficult format to mix and edit in, so its only real applications are either archiving analogue masters, or doing an equivalent of direct to disc recordings. Whereas 24/192 has been widely used for years, and it is these 24/192 masters that are now being made available for download.

If you google "John Siau DSD" you'll find a fascinating article about DSD on real-hd by John Siau, a well respected DAC designer who actually sells a DSD capable DAC, yet nonetheless says of DSD:

"We do not recommend it at all for any kind of studio production work. It’s just completely unsuitable for professional applications…for any production work"

think once again you are trying to look at this as a format war.. please read above comments. We are not here to create the next battle. 

kyoto, if you had a naim DSD player right now, connected to your hifi system, what DSD masters are there that you want to play?

I would definitely start browsing thru blue coast music and Chanel music website for some classical and jazz downloads. That would be a start. Doesn't mean I won't enjoy my 24/96, 24/192 or CDs. I'll still love them as much. But I want more, and I think most of audiophiles prefer more choices than less?

Like MiniDisc, CD, DAT, Open Reel, Cassette, Vinyl, FM and DAB? Oh yeah. The more the merrier.

I think you kind of make my point. Cooky Marenco, of Blue Coast Music, records to analogue tape then mixes down to DSD. Here's a quote from an interview with her: "The core of the studio is probably the 2" machine, an Otari MTR 90, which I've had since it was new in 1987.". Her mixes are done from tape, and only the last stage is DSD. Only a very small number of blue coast records are recorded direct to DSD.

Channel Classics do record in DSD, and I'm sure they are superb recordings. Maybe 10 discs a year?

Still can't see a lot of people on the DSD "wagon"! Even one of the formats most vocal enthusiasts, Cooky Marenco, uses analogue to record, edit and mix in!

I'm inclined to agree with John Siau in the interview I referred to earlier. In it's day, DSD was a great format for archiving analogue tape and releasing high definition SACDs. In the latter case, most of the recording and mastering would have been done in PCM, and we can now play those masters directly without an additional step, so DSD has had it's day.

Yes sir, I think you're right. Even if the DSD format is added later on, I really think you should just turn it off !

I support this. I also support the ability to upgrade all existing streamers to support the DSD format as well. Since even if I purchase an external DSD DAC from another company now, my NDX would not be able to digitally output DSD signal.