Almost ridiculous difference

Which brings us back to why some of us were suggesting possible reasons why someone might hear a difference when there is absolutely no physical evidence in terms of how the cable should operate. I don't think it is a case of "Go listen to it to see if I'm right or wrong!" rather If there are no physical reasons why it might sound different lets try and fathom what other reasons there might be that might cause you hear a difference.

You may hear a difference and another person my hear a difference but that does not prove that the manufactured properties of that cable are the cause. If three people claim to have seen a ghost does that automatically mean that is it more likely that ghosts realistically exist as a natural phenomenon or simply that they have all experienced a similar alternative cause?

The alternative is the relativistic approach where everything is valid because we experience it regardless of science and/or other people. 

I'm now closing my eyes ......yes the world has definitely disappeared I have proved it .....don't believe me? ... you try it!  Nobel committee here I come...

@Jan - Non Return to Zero sounds like a Van de Graaff Generator album!

Tog

Seriously - you're kidding surely?

"If its true for you its true for you. Thats whats truth is". - interesting theory but fairly sure it isn't you know. No universal truth - everything is relative?

"I don't have an opinion about what I haven't experienced " - Blimey that covers a lot of ground - the centre of your own private cosmos.

Your real name isn't Dr Mabuse by any chance?

Tog

Vomiting comes to mind.

But I do like beer - and on occasions when I have had too much ....

I wouldn't know. I might have seen them, they might have seen me, but you'd think the least we can do is wave to each other.

Jan, yep the iPad and the auto 'correct '  ran away from me;  it should say it converts an analogue signal to a binary signal...

NRZI is a wonderful symbol encoding technique that is common in many applications that don't rely on absolute DC analogue values.  It allows symbol encoding using a analogue signal on a circuit to depict a binary value. It's used on USB, SPDIF and Fast Ethernet, ie 100 Base T. I think the clock frequency of 100BaseT is approx 31.5 MHz (from memory).

Interestingly 1000BaseT uses a different technique using PAM (Pulse Amplitude Modulation.... Perhaps not quite as catchy as Non Return to Zero.... ) on twin circuits.

My point is these are all analogue signals that interact in the real world with systems and cables and connectors.. It has nothing to do with TCPIP higher layers and bits and bytes of samples.

Simon 

How do you know Simon - using Jonas' logic - you can believe that and he can believe it is the ethernet cable - both can be true at the same time and neither has to be wrong- hey can't some quantum particles exist in two places at once - quantum audiophile philosophy.

Tog

Thanks Simon, sorry if I'm being a bit thick, but I'm still not clear on what these analogue signals are representing. You say they have nothing to do with the binary encoding of the sample data (but that they can interact with audio equipment through induction). Then what are they there for ?

Jan

Tog, you might miss my point.. I am justifying  why a so called Ethernet cable can have an impact.  but it has nought to do Ethernet framing, ie digital payloads, but the analogue symbol encoding at the physical level. This is where the interaction with the cable will occur. In the OSI 7 level model, physical is at layer 1. Sample data is up at layer 7.

Simon

Jan, these links carry encodings which build up frames, which build into packets, then segments, then application encoding and then finally application payload.. Ie sample data. So in that sense they are connected... However the physical interaction at the physical level is very far removed from the sample data, with many levels of encapsulation and data sequencing etc..

The real time interactions we hear I say are the analogue signal coupling into the audio equipment...  This is why you can affect the sound quality by modifying these

Simon

Thanks very much Simon. The next question then would have to be : Which aspects of a cable's design could reduce or effectively eliminate coupling of the analogue signal ?

Jan

Simon.

The stuff you wrote probably means something to you. 

But i think what you wrote is it could make a difference. Just on the last metre then?

HiFi manufacturers spend a lot time selecting components such as capacitors to find the best sounding ones. They all measure the same amd are the same as far as the rest of the electronics industry is concerned, but they sound different. 

Ethernet cables carry digital signals but they exist in the analogue world. You can see them and touch them. This, I believe, is Simon's point.

And finally, I am saying that Gary is totally and utterly wrong. Entertaining, but wrong.

Keith 

Garyi

do I see you admit that there might be something, which you don't have any knowledge about, that could have an influence on sound quality while the same bits are received?

You, and others, not accepting this possibility is what made this whole thread run off and gives credibility and support for the *possibility* of the OP's findings.

This is a break-through on an epic scale in this trolling bits-are-bits community.

cheers

I don't understand Gary's "last metre" remark. I have Vodka cables from the server to the streamer.

Having said that, it does still make a big difference if you only have one cable from switch to streamer.

i also assume Gary dosn't think Powerlines work, unless the last 1.5 metres is allowed to make a difference under his rules?

Keith

Aleg - I think you are confusing trolling with disagreement - 

Using your argument might you also accept that if the OP hears a difference it might come from the cable just as it might come from somewhere else not connected with the cable.

This would be a rational move forward.

Tog

Don't call me a troll Aleg. I have been here for many years.

And fundamentally I disagree that an ethernet cable makes a difference to sound. As long as its well constructed and not busted its works.

Basically although Simon is a terribly nice chap and giving you some rope, I think thats what he is saying.

Furthermore, even if at some scientific level it could be established that the sound *could* change, the onus is still on people making the claim that the sound change can be detected by human hearing, with the removal of all other factors.

I only hope the guy that spent 600 quid on an ethernet cable actually had three miles between his hifi and router, haha.

My argument is the same as Audioquest's. I don't know why they work, but the awkward fact remains that I and many others who have heard them know they make a difference. if Audioquest's R&D department can't work it out I doubt we will get any further than them with internet conjecture. 

Gary

Ok, nursing a bit of a hangover here, but yes I think the cables directly connected to the audio equipment are most likely to affect the audio equipment.

Jan

This is definitely not an exclusive list, however the areas i know that can make a difference in the design of the cable in terms of coupling and interference are impedance, common mode RFI mitigation, circuit crosstalk, induced earth/ground currents as well as reflections at the connector interface.....

Simon

Gary,

if you really need to measure an audible difference in order to believe they are there, then the hi fi industry is going to be a continuing disappointment to you.

Keith

So which is the best sounding router, switch or hub? 

Which sounds best, capacitor, chip or wire?

We have a thread here about Ethernet cables that cost hundreds, at some point these have to be plugged into a network device, how can people come up with arguments about a metre of cable then plug into a bog standard switching device?

I said that pages ago, and curiously no one answered.

Simon sorry that I misinterpreted you.