Almost ridiculous difference
Posted by: Jonas Olofsson on 05 October 2013
This upgrade surpriced me a lot. Less harsh, better bass and the whole sound is a lot fuller. Never easy to describe this kind of stuff in words but there is really no contest.
I guess this is common sense for most here that everything makes a difference, still I wasent preparerad how much better it would be.
Yes, its a capable system I use but at this level everything seams be important.
//Jonas
We have a thread here about Ethernet cables that cost hundreds, at some point these have to be plugged into a network device, how can people come up with arguments about a metre of cable then plug into a bog standard switching device?
The same question applies to a Powerline, surely?
So has anyone noticed a difference when changing network router etc? Am curious not disputing anyone's view on the value of their expensive cables
Yes, I have and I commented on this way back on thins forum just as Naim was getting into streaming. I and the other people that did this assessment with me noticed a difference. In this case it was different upnp servers on different devices streaming the same wav files. I wouldn't say one was 'better' than the other but you could notice a difference.
On inspection, as I was curious, it looked like (as I couldn't be sure as I had no way to confirm) that the TCP and link layer settings were different on the network adapters of the upnp servers so the TCPIP noise for a given piece of audio would be different. I couldn't say this was cause and effect, but there was a difference.. And others heard this as well.
Also I have found an electrically noisy network switch ( Netgear) radiates noise along connected Ethernet wires, ie common mode interference, and this affected my audio of nearby Naim components and my NAT03 FM tuner performance.. Again noted previously on this forum.
So in short many things can affect the audio.. Just like adjusting the toe in on your speakers.. You just get used to a given sound and remove anything obviously detracting ...And stop worrying about it and enjoy the music instead.
Simon
My argument is the same as Audioquest's. I don't know why they work, but the awkward fact remains that I and many others who have heard them know they make a difference. if Audioquest's R&D department can't work it out I doubt we will get any further than them with internet conjecture.
If the same argument were made by a pharmaceutical company - I think there might be some scepticism.
Tog
So in theory an enterprise level switch with better internal components will make a difference.
Q: What is the biggest variable in any given problem?
A: People
Tog
My argument is the same as Audioquest's. I don't know why they work, but the awkward fact remains that I and many others who have heard them know they make a difference. if Audioquest's R&D department can't work it out I doubt we will get any further than them with internet conjecture.
If the same argument were made by a pharmaceutical company - I think there might be some scepticism.
Tog
Tog
I like your examples.
have you ever seen how some pharmaceutical companies work on developing new medication?
they have a huge storage of active ingredients and test the efficacy of those on some pathogen in a petri dish, by applying thousands of those ingredients in an industrial size automated way and check the effect on the pathogen.
Sounds like trial-and-error to me.
cheers
An element of simplification there old chap...
Assuming in the standard Newtonian Universe cause always followed by effect. (your quantum mileage may vary)
You can approach an area of enquiry with an open mind and change /add the variables that you can control to explore the results and form a hypothesis. An exploratory design and perfectly valid.
The most common is the experimental design - hypothesis / test / review used by the vast majority of researchers in this and many other fields including my own.
In all of this - assuming you are ethical and honest in your research in testing you remain aware that there are variables that may not be under your control and/or variables that may have a direct impact on the thing that you are attempting to explore or measure - theses you try to bring under your control or eliminate. There varaibles you can manipulate (Independent) cable, router, power supply, atmospheric conditions, psychological state of the listener etc and those associated with the outcome - (dependent variable) in this case SQ.
Then of course the process of peer review and in the case of new drugs - controlled trials.
Tog
I
Despite all the obfuscation it still seems clear that:
- there is no issue with loss of musical data that a $600 cable might seek to address
- there might be RFI/EMI on an ethernet cable - in the same way there might be on any other cable or in the wider environment including switches, mains etc
Just that in balance many of us feel that an ethernet cable is unlikely to have an impact on SQ and that a perceived improvement using a $600 cable might in fact be caused by other factors.
Tog
Also feel a $1 choke offers a sensible alternative to a $600 cable regardless of whether the presence of RFI is perceived or real.
Worst case scenario is you throw the choke away. To throw away the $600 cable you would have to do it in the dark of night and hope no-one saw you. If they did, even a bit of amateur philosophy might not distract from the discomfort of the situation.
So which is the best sounding router, switch or hub?
Do some ISP's sound better than others?
I put in a shielded, screened 6a Ethernet cable into the NDX instead of my unshielded Ethernet cable. Did it improve the sound? Maybe, but since I only spent a few dollars, I don't need to convince myself it did. Doesn't sound any worse. I need to run over to radio shack today to buy a few chokes that fit well over it. I'll even splurge, and get a dozen. for about $12. :-)
Being able to hear a difference between two different ethernet cables (that are conformant to the specification) is like saying you hear a differences in the sound quality of your system depending on who goes to the CD rack, picks the CD and carries it to the player. Would you say you music sounds different if you or a friend does this?
Continuing your analogy, I think the argument is that one of your friends (the cheap one) keeps talking over the music once he has put the CD in the player. The expensive friend pours you a glass of red wine and then keeps quiet.
Having said that, I don't really buy it. Placebo effects and cognitive bias will be far stronger influences on opinion regarding SQ than any minor RFI differences. The money would likely be better spent on room treatments or more music!
Off topic: Whatever you say about Audioquest, their website is a great example of web design. Very nice indeed. They could do with some SEO however, as it didn't really feature in my google search.
A comment on Tog's pharmaceutical analogy:
Our dog has a very sensitive stomach (not ideal for a lab who will eat anything). She has been treated with the antibiotic metronidazole. The vet told us she might have to stay on a low dose permanently. Normally antibiotics should not be used like this but vets have found it controls the symptoms. It works, but they don't know why.
I think that the drug development analogy works better when we focus on the fact that drug companies run large, placebo-controlled, BLINDED studies.
There are many approved drugs where 'how it works' is not known. That is not a problem when getting a drug approved. But relying only on "open label" (where the patients and the MD's assessing the patients know what they took) studies where patients only report subjective results (I feel better) certainly would be a problem.
Which is precisely the problem we have here -
Tog
Quite.
But that's exactly what hi fi manufacturers do. They try things out, listen to the results and go with what sounds best. They have to trust their own ears. If they didn't and relied instead on theory and measurement, as you are advocating, we wouldn't have any products in Naim range (eg Powerlines, anything that has a fuse because Naim claim they are directional, any product thst contans capacitors, any cable that has been shaken etc.).
I think Naim would be the first to point out that they know why product X works given it is manufactured using approach Y.
If as you say a hypothetical manufacturer doesn't know why a product works then a hypothetical manufacturer might be advised to refrain from providing scientific sounding reasons why their product is so marvellous.
Tog
I think that the drug development analogy works better when we focus on the fact that drug companies run large, placebo-controlled, BLINDED studies.
There are many approved drugs where 'how it works' is not known. That is not a problem when getting a drug approved. But relying only on "open label" (where the patients and the MD's assessing the patients know what they took) studies where patients only report subjective results (I feel better) certainly would be a problem.
+1 to this. No-one has convinced me that double-blind testing is inappropriate for audio tweaks.
+1
With non-audiophiles
Tog
Not always.
See quote below (from an old thread) on speaker cable directionality. I have never tried to confirm this apparent phenomenon with my own ears myself, but I never had any feeling or reason that should doubt it - because it has been reported by people who are in my view both trustworthy and scientific minded or actually highly qualified engineers. In fact I remember a post - I believe from Richard Dane - implying that naim's technichal director himself accepts the phenomenon on the basis of hearing. Possibly the Thechies at naim to this day don't know why the directionality feature of NACA5 works, they may know no possible explanation on the basis of their scientific expertise, but naim nevertheless manufacture and supplies the cable with this feature.
Julian Vereker:
"I can't tell you why cables sound different one way round to the other, but I do know when the 'directionality' happens in manufacture. It doesn't seem to matter how the bundle (of copper) is drawn, single direction or mixed direction, but as soon as the insulation is extruded onto the bundle, the directionality is established. This means that one can mark the insulation and it will always be the right way round. I suspect that the hot plastic insulation anneals the copper in some way, and this affects the crystaline structure. But all our attempts, over many years, have failed to find any measurement to show the directionality or indeed whether one cable will sound better than another (other than the obvious - resistance, capacitance and inductance) Maybe someone out there knows?"
I'm not going to be the one who re- introduces the argument that Naim cable is a bit controversial - personally I prefer Atlas ... oh damn .....
Tog