Almost ridiculous difference

Hi Aleg,

A nice summary of the thread,

Hi HH,

I have not heard the Cinnamon demonstrated, only the Vodka and Forest. The latter, is one down from the Cinnamon and did make a nice difference.

I will be interested in your opinion and hope you like it. If you don't then fair play to you for giving it a go.

Keith 

My Meicord cables turned up yesterday and I've got them running between my NAS, Mac mini and switch. Switch to NDX is by my usual run of 30m or so of CAT5e. I'll run them for a few days and then put the old cables in and report back.

Now they should not make any difference...

James

Not quite - so lets define one side of the argument very simply

1. OP hear a difference in SQ when using a $600 ethernet cable whose makers claim that it does indeed improve the SQ.

2. This is unexpected as differences in ethernet cable should not have an audible impact due to the nature of network protocols etc.

3. Some posters suggest whilst the cable may be responsible, it is unlikely given what we know about the process and therefore it might be prudent to consider alternative explanations.

4. Being human some reprobates may have also poked fun at the OP and the amount of money he spent - they should be now be very ashamed of themselves.

Some other posters have taken the alternative position that since science cannot be judged to be infallible, it is sufficient to believe that the cable must be responsible for the improved SQ since belief equals the truth and the truth is in the ear of the listener. Which is cool if you confine your argument to the individual and avoid extending your argument to the rest of humanity.

eg. I hear a difference, I believe it is my expensive cable therefore it is my expensive cable. Those without faith in my cable are but narrow minded non-believers who cling to the false god of rationality and the evil of science. 

Tog

Some cats analyze, others just listen.

Thanks Keith, I'll let you know. I've asked for it to be delivered in a plain brown packet, lest postie starts lecturing me on how it cannot possibly make a difference. If it works out, I will try another from the Serve to the switch.

Tog

If they've discovered something new and worthwhile they will naturally be in a position to secure their own highly valuable patent. Unless, that is....

Hi PureReader thanks for the reply... Well although I do come across RFI/EMI in my professional role, by biggest baptism of fire of it was when I was an undergraduate where I completely failed to counter in a digital board I designed that performed fast hardware video analysis... It almost ended in tears ... And more recently I have explored the area somewhat at a personal level with the RSGB and the AES.

I do find the area of electro magnetic compliance and interference fascinating... as it is a cross between radio propogation and electrical conduction and can be hard to control..

The extent to which you can hear perturbations is largely down to you and the revealing nature of your equipment. RFI can manifest itself in all sorts of ways, and when it causes intermodulation distortion can sometimes cause low level distortion, hardness and brightness.

Wat, you are right the NDS has many techniques to minimise the impact of RFI from network leads, circuitry EMI  etc, and I am confident it does a better job than the NDX at decoupling (  as I always stated on this forum  I hoped the successor to the NDX would do before the NDS had appeared) ... But given shared ground planes and powerlines that appear to run in parallel together (as opposed to braided) and the close albeit shielded proximity I suspect no one or very few are going to say the issue is minimised completely.

As far as the effect on audio ... It's true I detest RFI intermod, and appear unusually  sensitive to it, and i am sure most are oblivious to it, if this forum is anything to go by... And it's a simple choice of what I prefer... And it usually entails chokes around SPDIF and Ethernet leads to impede RF currents flowing where not wanted, and careful shielding and routing of Ethernet leads and mains leads, and banishing poor SMPS's out of harms way.

So if a fancy boutique Ethernet lead helps reduce the effects of RFI then good, there is no way I would personally spend a lot on it, but I can certainly understand why it might have a beneficial audible effect. 

If only RFI was not invisible I suspect these discussions would turn out quite differently.

Simon

Despite all the obfuscation it still seems clear that:

1. there is no issue with loss of musical data that a $600 cable might seek to address
2. there might be RFI/EMI on an ethernet cable - in the same way there might be on any other cable or in the wider environment including switches, mains etc

On the other hand, why does a HiLine have to cost $1200? Or a Snaic $400?

Forrtunately it appears there has been a statement of the science as follows:

1. SOLID 100% PERFECT-SURFACE SILVER (PSS) CONDUCTORS: Perfect-Surface Technology applied to extreme-purity silver provides unprecedented clarity and dynamic contrast. Solid conductors prevent strand interaction, a major source of cable distortion. Extremely high-purity Perfect-Surface Silver minimizes distortion caused by the grain boundaries which exist within any metal conductor, nearly eliminating harshness and greatly increasing clarity compared to OFHC, OCC, 8N and other coppers.
2. SOLID HIGH-DENSITY POLYETHYLENE INSULATION: Any solid material adjacent to a conductor is actually part of an imperfect circuit. Wire insulation and circuit board materials all absorb energy (loss). Some of this energy is stored and then later released as distortion. Solid High-Density Polyethylene Insulation ensures critical signal-pair geometry while minimizing insulation-induced phase distortion.
3. DIELECTRIC-BIAS SYSTEM (DBS, US Pat #s 7,126,055 & 7,872,195 B1): All insulation slows down the signal on the conductor inside. When insulation is unbiased, it slows down parts of the signal differently, a big problem for very time-sensitive multi-octave audio. AudioQuest’s DBS creates a strong, stable electrostatic field which saturates and polarizes (organizes) the molecules of the insulation. This minimizes both energy storage in the insulation and the multiple nonlinear time-delays that occur. Sound appears from a surprisingly black background with unexpected detail and dynamic contrast. The DBS battery packs will last for years. A test button and LED allow for the occasional battery check.
4. CARBON-BASED 3-LAYER NOISE-DISSIPATION SYSTEM (NDS): 100% shield coverage is easy. Preventing captured RF Interference from modulating the equipment’s ground reference requires AQ’s Noise-Dissipation System. Metal and Carbon-Loaded synthetics prevent most RFI from reaching the equipment’s ground plane.
5. TERMINATIONS: Precision-made low-loss ultra-wide bandwidth connectors with 100% shield coverage and strain relief.
6. HIGH-SPEED DATA CAPACITY: The Cat 7 cable standard has been created to allow 10- Gigabit Ethernet over 100 m of copper cabling.
7. DIRECTIONALITY: All audio cables are directional. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. Arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For best results have the arrow pointing in the direction of the flow of music. For example, NAS to Router, Router to Network Player.

Mark, interesting... However with your directional cable how do they work on duplex Ethernet leads, are the circuit pairs inside the cable optimised for the each direction flow? As obviously with duplex Ethernet using TCP data flows both ways in along different pairs. 

Simon

SImon, now you are nit-picking

Use two bits of $600 cable pointing in different directions?

and to continue...

Is the music data really flowing both ways on the cable, or is it just flowing one way (buoyed along in neatly framed RFI-proof packets ) from the NAS to router, then router to player. I had understood that the data flowing in the reverse direction is not music data, but instructions to resend the music data (its missing packets). An oversimplification, no doubt... Simon ?

Jan

Jan, if by music data you are referring to the packetised chunks of encapsulated sample data, then yes they are only being sent to the network player..... But packets are going both ways... Anyway....

Now completely off topic. I have just reseated the DIN plug in the Hicap2 going to my 282.. and there is change.. The imaging has just become clearer and more 'projected'. Enjoying some superb New Orleans jazz.. This hifi stuff is fascinating....

Hi Simon,

i hope you can measure the improved imaging. If not, I'm afraid we'll have to put it down to cognitive bias 

Keith

I think its funny that anybody posting here would criticize any other poster re: having spent large sums of money on anything related to hi fi.  Its like the Math Club mocking the Chess team.

BTW....  I asked my wife how much she thought these things cost:

UnitiLite:  $200.00

Dac V1:   $150.00

That's awesome! I made a deal with my wife; don't ask how much my hi fi costs and I won't ask how much you spend on clothes or shoes. I don't think either of us really wants to know the answer anyhow.

The ethernet cable patents have long since run out back in the 80s. Pretty much any geometry of wire has been patented at some time or another, so the patents have been and gone, meaning that if the manufacturer stumbles on something there's simply no point in going down the patent route because it's already been done - and can be copied.

I know because unless you are a uniquely lucky individual, wireless is always worse than wired - at least, at this point in time when wireless is still relatively unstable, unreliable and has lower throughput rates.

As for your locks...I promise I haven't been in your drawers...

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

your post makes my day - thx

So we have established directionality.

but packetised chunks of encapsulated sample data... technically correct, but boy does it kill the romance of thinking about music.