Qobuz opens in Europe on 2 December 2013

This is quite exciting, to have a Spotify type service available but lossless is a huge step forward.  I wonder if Spotify will follow suit?

I feed Sonos into an NDX which is rather good,  I could be tempted to get the Sonos modified to further lift the quality.  This would probably then be very  close to the NDX  streaming in sound quality.

Richard

Hi Richard,

I don't understand your "close to the NDX" comment. If you modify the Sonos and sell the NDX the sound won't be close the NDX and if you keep it the sound will be the NDX.

Hi Scott,

You will need a PC/Mac/Sonos/phone/tablet to feed the streaming service to the ND5x.

It used to be the case that USB port on Naim streamers could only see Apple portables as iTunes libraries and so could not be used to stream the likes of Spotify (thankfully, the DAC accepts all sources). Hopefully, this issue has been fixed by now.

Keith

Back on topic, does anyone know how fast broadband needs to be to stream at CD quality?

Keith

Keith

Sorry, perhaps I didn't make this clear.  I use the Sonos into the NDX digital input, this sounds good but is not as good as the NDX when the NDX is streaming natively from the same file.

I'm thinking that if the Sonos is improved with a mod and runs into the digital in of the NDX the sound quality will be quite close to the native NDX.

I have no intention of selling the NDX, it's convenient, sounds great and also does hires.  

I recall on this forum that there was talk that Naim may adopt the Qobuz API into its streamers and this is mentioned somewhere on the Qobuz website. This would be an excellent move as it would make the Sonos redundant and allow the full sound quality of the NDX to be realized.  

Scott a Sonos could be a good option for you as well.  The Zoneplayers can be had for under £200 used and resell well should Naim eventually integrate the Qobuz service into their range of streamers.  Another option is Apple TV into a digital in of the ND5 and Airplay from an iPad.  I do however find the sound of this inferior when streaming Spoitfy from the iPad compared to the Sonos.

Richard

Keith

CD quality is 1411 kbits/s for 2 channel audio.  This means that you would need at least 1.4 mb/s speed in a perfect world. As the service will be FLAC then the data being transferred will be less than this as the streamer will uncompress the file stream.

Realistically a reliable minimum 3 mb/s ADSL connection should work, this will provide some margin and an opportunity for buffering

A good test is to see how far you can push the resolution with BBC iPlayer.  According to theur website full screen consumes 1.5mb/s and their HD streams are 3.2mb/s.  If you achieve a constant stream on these you should be OK.

The other thing to consider is that you need to be on an unlimited plan as the data being transferred will be significant.

Richard

Thanks Richard, I get it now. Sorry.

Until now, for Spotify I have used the iPad into the USB input into the DAC and Apple TV via optical, which sounds significantly worse. This is ok for 320kbps but 16 bit might justify something better, assuming my broadband speed is up to it.

Keith

Thanks Richard,

i do get better than 3 mb/s but it can dip below this and iPlayer buffering is not uncommon at standard def and an issue for HD. At least I will have a new source of hi res downloads.

Keith

Am currently using Spotify to search for and try out new music.  If I like what I hear, I buy the used CD from either a local store or Amazon. To  my ears, and using my audio setup, 16/44.1 rips sound a lot better than 320 mb/sec streams.  The CD rips have greater clarity, depth, width, and so on.  But even more importantly, the CD rips give me a stronger sense of "I am there" or "They are here", which is pretty much my #1 criteria for judging sound quality.

My question is:  can Qobuz be the game changer?  Will it really eliminate the need to buy/rip CDs altogether?  I suspect there will always be some obscure works that they haven't added to their library.  My bigger concern is one of provenance: does Qobuz tell you which version of a digital release their streams come from?  For example, in the Blue Note jazz world, there's a pretty big difference between the more recent Rudy Van Gelder reissues versus the original releases that were done by Ron McMaster.  Generally speaking, the RVG's sound a little too "pumped up". There are exceptions of course, where  compression and noise reduction were more judiciously applied.  But in most cases, the older CDs sound more natural.

I hope that Qobuz has a hugely successful European/UK roll-out, and I hope they follow this with expansion to the US.  I would sign-up immediately, even if Qobuz only replaces Spotify as my search engine. After all, there's quite a bit of music that I would like to listen to once or twice, but don't necessarily feel the need to own (e.g., a lot of the guilty pleasure music of my wayward yoof ).

ATB.

Hook

PS -   TAS magazine uses "I am there", or the sense of music sounding "live" as one of three ways to distinguish among different types of audiophiles.  The other two are: 1) "fidelity to the source", and 2) having an audio setup that makes everything sound...beautiful.  A lot of vintage tube setups fall into this latter category.  All three represent valid approaches to building an audio system, and they are not mutually exclusive.  But it seems like most of us, if questioned, will rank one of these three approaches over the others.

How come you are up so early on a Sunday Hook ? ATB Peter

Hook,

My view on this very topic (a day when I was in a grumpy mood):

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...54#29865740422155854

ATB

Maurice

Hi Richard –

I have compared the standard Sonos to the Wyred4Sound modified unit and found the latter to be a much-improved source.  I can’t say whether it would match the NDX in sound quality, but then the NDX doesn’t offer access to millions of songs on MOG or Spotify.  Yes, there is a difference between streaming 320K internet music and computer stored CDs, but it’s surprisingly small IMO. 

BTW, there are other options to improve Sonos.  One would be the Synchro-Mesh re-clocker from Empirical Audio.  Another is the Audiocom modification, although that choice may no longer be available according to their website.  

Kendrick

Usual info, thanks.  I know Guido (sadly ex of this forum) ran the Wyred4Sound Sonos into a Naim DAC and found it to be excellent.

With a decent internet connection (I have 100mb/s cable) and a source sorted I could see this service getting a lot of playing time. Spotify is OK for trying out music but I have found that as my system has improved the gap between Spotify and streamed redbook has widened significantely so a lossless service is very appealing.

Richard

I've been pretty impressed with Qobuz, certainly from the user support perspective. Whilst on the face of it you can't access stuff if you are UK-based, if you email them, they will permission your account. I hope they offer something new.

Streaming in flac or alac in CD quality is comming.##No doubt it will be avaliable as an standard for approx. 19,9€

Spotify, Simpfy a.s.o.

Guido's comments helped me sort out whether to buy a modified Sonos, Mac mini, or Naim streamer. I'm also sorry to see that he is no longer posting on the forum.  

Appreciate your comment about the widening gap between Spotify and streamed redbook as your system improved.   I wondered as much and may need a source upgrade if I ever move from the XS to the Classic Series.  I would do it today if Naim offered a streaming product that included Spotify or MOG.  

Hello,

 Previously charged € 29.99 euro per month subscription Qobuz Hi-Fi  to 19.99 euro € for streaming FLAC 16-bit, 44.1 kHz format , Just contacted qobuz when the new streaming subscriptions take effect this is what they sent back 

The new prices will be available on November 5.

Thank you for your interest and understanding.

We remain at your disposal.

Cordially.

Support et Service Clients

249 rue de Crimée

75019 Paris.

support@qobuz.com

QOBUZ, La Musique est de retour.

It was the 282 that really killed it, rapidly followed by a Hicap DR.  When I had 202/Hicap (non DR then)/200 with Spotify via Sonos (using the NDX DAC) it could sound rather lovely. It still does but the native streaming via the NDX is now so much better that I only use Spotify for music discovery, like Hook.

Richard

I think a solution for streaming at CD quality level and being able to control the stream from an iPhone or iPad would be wonderful. No backup, no ripping, no filing, no need to play with the metadata. I am a Qobuz customer. Like it in my office but would like to have it work on my primary HiFi system without being hooked to a computer. I discussed it at length with a friend working at Qobuz. He advised me to buy a Sonos connect and use it as a streamer plugged into my NDS used as a DAC. The Sonos application is apparently working great from a iPhone or iPad, literally placing the whole library in CD quality at your fingertips. I wonder if I might loose some sound quality compared to the NDS. It is not so sure. From what he told me Sonos is working closely with Qobuz but the company could not get the same attention from Naim. I wonder if anybody has tried to the use the Sonos connect as a streamer into the NDS DAC and what they think about it. Anyhow, if Naim could integrate an interface to Qobuz or any other company site to stream from the net at CD quality, that would be great. 

Best,

Michel

Michel

I can't comment on how the Sonos into the NDS will compare to the NDS streamer but I can give some insight into the difference on an NDX.

I have done a comparison tonight using the same files (Redbook) on the same server. The Sonos is hard wired to the network and the NDX ethernet is connected to the Sonos hub. The Sonos is connected to the NDX using a midrange QED coax cable.

Superficially they both sound the same, closer listening does reveal differences, the Sonos seems to be missing something, it's not detail but an immediacy or vibrancy to the sound. It is difficult to put into words but it's a bit like comparing cables which I always find confusing and try to avoid!

The Sonos is more than listenable, the prospect of having an almost unlimited source of music at this quality (which in theory should be as good as local Sonos streaming) is very exciting and a potential game changer.

I wonder if the differences will be smaller or larger on the NDS? The NDS streamer is undoubtably superior to the NDX but so is the DAC, so will it cope with the Sonos stream better or will the NDS streaming section be so much better that the gap is wider.

I suspect that with a modded Sonos they will be very close indeed.

Richard

Richard, I think you'll find the streamer is pretty similar, if not identical between  the NDX and NDS. It's the DSP physical implementation, DAC, analogue circuitry and interfacing between them where the main differences lie.

Simon

Richard,

Thank you for the information. I am very tempted to buy a Sonos connect just to be able to have unlimited streaming at CD level and being able to control it from my iPhone. I will have a test with my Mac since I got a one month demo for Qobuz FLAC streaming. It will be interesting to hear if there is a difference between streaming from the Mac and using the NDS as a DAC, and streaming from my NAS trough the NDS with the same records. If the difference is reasonable, I guess I will get the Sonos for the added convenience. It is one more box though.

Cheers,

Michel

Hy Michel,

how about that:

use the iPad-APP from Qobuz and "stream" it via bluetooth to a receiver with an digital-output into the NDS.

I use this way (without the abo) to check new records by listening to the 1 minute preview.

Works (and sounds) great.

Just a thought...

cu, tom

Thank you Tom for pointing out this possibility.

Cheers,

Michel