555PS v 555PSDR on nDAC: for me the old dog wins

Posted by: MDS on 08 February 2014

Back in the late summer I had a 2-week trial in my system (CDX2.2/XP5XS/DCA1/nDAC/XP5XS/Hi-line/282/SC/250.2/Focal Electra 1028be) of a 555PSDR in place of the XP5 on my nDAC.  Given all the rave reviews on here of the 555PSDR I thought it would be an easy decision.  The 555 was carefully installed by my dealer, and this included a mid-demo fine-tuning of the position of my Electras.

 

Over the two weeks I tried a lot of stuff eg Phil Collins, Genesis, Family, Led Zep, Eagles, Mary Black, Garbage, Mac, Seal. There was an uplift apparent in resolution across all material, though the degree varied. High quality recordings like Mary Black really shone. On ‘Stories from the Steeple’ the strings on the double-bass actually sounded that they were being plucked, not just played - wonderful. Similarly, the acoustic guitar and hit-hats were coming out of the mix clearer than before before. And lead vocals on many tracks seem to project into the room rather better.  The heavy bass on Seal seemed to go a deeper albeit with more prominence, and the different layers within the complex mix became easier to make sense of. Cymbals had a wonder shimmer.

 

But it wasn’t exclusively positive.  The bass on some stuff seemed overly prominent e.g. on Garbage 2.0 the 555PSDR resolved this heavy duty and complex stuff really well but on Temptation Waits and Medication the bass was a bit over-blown. I also sensed a heightened ‘hardness’ in presentation on some material eg Phil C and Genesis.  It was if the 555PSDR was amplifying the digital signature which I guessed might be inherent in the CDX2 and/or DAC. So at the end of two weeks the XP5 was plugged back and I listened to those albums again. Phil Collins’ ...But Seriously had now lost that glare making the album enjoyable again. High-hats etc were no longer as well defined and had lost that delightful shimmer but hadn’t disappeared completely. On Garbage the XP5 retreated on resolution but the bass better fitted the mix - not as well defined but not drawing overdue attention to itself.   On Push it, my favourite track on the album, the 555PSDR certainly resolved the different threads wonderfully and in a way the XP5 just couldn’t manage but the XP5, even with its fuzzier edges, still probably had the edge in entertainment value. It was similar with Genesis’s We Can’t Dance. I certainly missed the crashing of the cymbals that the 555DR resolved but with the XP5 I was tempted to turn the wick up, despite the lower resolution, whereas with the 555DR I was reaching to turn it down. Telling.  

 

So what did I make of all this?  I got the impression that the 555PSDR was sometimes pushing the nDAC or system a bit harder than it was really comfortable with,  like turbo-charging a car slightly beyond its design parameters perhaps. I would find myself more often turning the volume control down with the 555DR rather than up.  With the twin XP5s back in the system has relaxed again and the music, even though less detailed, flowed better. 

 

So somewhat surprised and disappointed I parked the 555 idea and thought I would explore improvements on the amplification side.  Late in the year I tried a 252 and SCDR and an XPSDR.  The latter was only marginally better than my XP5 so was easily dismissed.  The 252 and SCDR was nice. A different presentation to the 282: more laid back but more detailed and atmospheric.  My dealer and I agreed I should reflect over the Xmas break.

 

And then a couple of weeks ago my dealer suggested I try a Powerline on the 282’s Napsc [See separate thread https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...-be-hearing-this-but] which was a revelation and having added another couple of PLs the amps suddenly seemed to exert a much better grip as well as producing more detail. And as coincidence would have it he had just had a 555PS traded in and we agreed I would give it try. That was last weekend. 

 

After a 24hr warm up of the 555PS the first album I listened to was Melody Gardot’s Worrisome Heart.   Very nicely detailed and atmospheric. Fretwork I hadn’t noticed before. Instruments seem between separated. Not quite the delightful shimmering on cymbals I recalled from the 555DR but on the other hand the slight edge to Melody’s voice I’d previously noticed when trialling the 555DR wasn’t evident. Next up Mary Black’s Stories from the Steeples. Double-bass very clear in the mix with the strings clearly being plucked, but balanced and not over-prominent. Vocals and backing chorus beautifully clear and ‘layered’.  Easier to make out some of the words of the lyrics. Mary’s powerful voice can easily come across as tending towards harshness on some systems. Not here.  

 

Seal’s Killer took another step forward. Everything seemed to start and stop that much quicker, the multi-layering seemed to expand even further, and still more detail comes out of the mix. The rest of the Seal album sounded very good, even at quite modest volume.       

 

Day 2 and remembering the 555DR seemed to emphasis the digital glare on Genesis and Phil Collins albums that’s where I went next. On We Can’t Dance I couldn’t detect it. No ‘edge’ to PC’s voice.  Again cymbals not as noticeable as on the DR but still well resolved.  The sound, especially the bass, had a nice velvety, rich feel.  I found I was nudging up the volume control as Driving the Last Spike started. The song washed over me.  As the song develops to the ‘big-drum’ peak there no hint of strain, as I have heard sometimes previously; the sound-stage just got bigger and deeper. On the title track, it felt like Phil C was standing a few feet in front of me. Best I’ve heard this song reproduced, ever.  Rest of the album skipped by with a lovely pace and bounce. It was almost as if the system was enjoying itself. A brief detour to Damien Rice’s O.  Bloody hell - this was visceral!  The clarity, presence and bass grip was stunning. 

 

Garbage 2.0 on which the 555DR rather over-did the bass was well resolved with more and more detail coming through. The bass was fulsome but better controlled.  DSOTM was given a spin. Straight from the off the synthetic heartbeat on Speak to Me seemed to go really low and there was detail I’d not heard before (I thought I knew this album inside out). The intro to Time was clearest I’ve heard those clocks to date and later in the song the bongos in the background came over very well.  Vocals throughout seemed clearer with the differentiation better between the backing vocals. Money bounced along wonderfully with it’s changing of tempo, and the sax had a great rasp, like a bite on a slice of lemon.  That deliciously rich bass was evident throughout the album, too.  

 

Day 3 - I revisiting some of stuff I tried earlier just to make sure my ears weren’t deceiving me.  They weren’t.  Supertramp’s Crime of the Century showed similar virtues: more detail, bigger soundstage and that entertaining ‘bounce’. Every aspect of the performance was better. 

 

In summary the phrases that sprung to mind were: fulsome but not over-blown;  a bigger sound but not forced;  softer and fruitier than the 555DR.  Top end didn’t tingle and shimmer quite like the 555DR but nor was there that tendency to emphasis glare, a trade-off I think worthwhile; and the soundstage had expanded hugely.  It was probably one of the shortest home demos I have had but also one of the easiest.

 

Am I saying the 555PS is better than the DR version? No, but it better suits my system and my ears. Just goes to show the importance of listening to kit in your own system. 

 

A long post, I know, but I hope others thinking of upgrading the PSU on their nDAC might benefit from it.

 

MDS  

 

Posted on: 11 February 2014 by Emil F

I have to say that my impressions from a SCDR were similar to the OP’s descriptions. That “hardness” was there and it affected the natural decay and some other aspects of the sound. It was easy to tell, but most evident with classical LPs.

 

I guess that besides the DR update, we get also the designer’s tuning of the sound.

Most probably results depend on tastes, system level, listening experience (incl. other brands).

 

I don’t believe one needs full DR upgrades to get it right. Implementation of quality equipment should better the sound (with the exceptions, when it highlights weaknesses), as was the case with the Koetsu.

Posted on: 11 February 2014 by AMA

I can also add something -- not very popular at Naim forum. My system is set up in such a way that it casts a huge 3D stage with pint-point imaging -- as if sonic images are hanging in the air, far behind the speakers. This type of soundstage can only be achieved if you put speakers at least 2 meters away from the back wall and at least 0.5 meter away from the side walls and if you have at least two meters in between the speakers and if you sit at least 2 meters away from speakers and still have a meter behind your back. So if you can afford such a room you may find that soundstage is staggering as if live performers are spread around the room (I never managed to get a solid soundstage when placing speakers closer to back wall -- like < 1 m). The stories of "Naim is not doing a soundstage" are totally outdated and most probably refer to Naim speaker as all Naim electronic starting from 282/250.2 is quite capable of casting a very accurate 3D soundstage (and 552/552DR/500 is doing a mind-blowing soundstage) -- when set up with right speakers model and right speakers placement.

 

The critical element of building coherent soundstage is the timing -- and that is what Naim is doing so right (but on a different agenda).  And 555DR shows a good leap over 555PS in terms of soundstage precision (when both run through nDAC). But I do admit that this particular quality may not interest most of the Naim owners.

Posted on: 11 February 2014 by Felix H

Quickly skimming through this thread it's interesting to note that 500-series owners seem to have clear preference for the DR version of 555PS. But the OP and quite a few others who had amplification at 282 level or below seem to have preferred what the non-DR 555PS does in their systems - at least with NDAC (if not other sources).

 

So I'd agree much of this must be about system balance. Better amps do get more out of the way, letting you hear more of the source and imposing less of their own character. Sometimes a well chosen source can "balance" the characteristics of a lesser amp - only a good thing.

Posted on: 11 February 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Yeah I do think a lot of  this is down to personal preference.. although I have not experimented to the extent AMA has with his 3D imaging.

But the best sound i have EVER heard on Naim was a  NDX/555PS into NDAC/555PS into 552/500 into a pair of Titans.. (all non DR) yes it didn't have huge 3D spatiality perhaps because of the room - but speakers were 2m + away from back and sides - but the sound, vibe and texture was to die for - it really left a mind blowing impression... I later listened to full DR NDS/2x555PS 552/500 into the same Titans - and it just didn't do it for me....

 

But - I really love my own humble HiCapDR into my 282 with analogue and digi sources 

 

Simon

 

Posted on: 11 February 2014 by 911gt3r

I think this whole discussion of preference DR/nonDR boils down to, as Simon suggests part room interaction, but simply also how ' close to the edge of the seat' we want to be. The sheer increase in resolution/ inter node silence DR brings isn't for everyone, as much as some prefer olive 52/135s. Personally having lived with all above, full chain DR delivers a maturity and particularly musicality not to forget, I now couldn't live without ( This is in MY 'lively' room !)  . ATB Peter

PS. MDS my reference to 'the old dog' was referring to , when we spoke on the phone, remember?

Posted on: 11 February 2014 by MDS

The 555PS on the nDAC has certainly given me a much bigger soundstage in terms of breadth and width, and that's within a fairly modest size room (nearly 5m x 4m) and my Electras necessarily being within about 30cm of the rear wall.  But I suspect it falls a long way short of the wonderful effect that AMA describes.

 

This pure speculation on my part, but I wonder whether the slight hardness I heard with the 555PSDR in my system, and seemingly experienced by one or two other contributors, is possibly Naim 'voicing' the DR to suit its speakers. In other words, optimised for the BMR, and conventional tweeters, like the metallic ones like on my Electras, accentuate the DR's higher top end resolution? Just a guess.

 

Also, I think Felix might be onto something about the pre-amps used. Having recently tried a 252 in my system it struck me as having, among other attributes, less top end 'sparkle' than my 282 delivers so the 282 might be contributing too. 

 

MDS

Posted on: 11 February 2014 by MDS
Originally Posted by 911gt3r:

I think this whole discussion of preference DR/nonDR boils down to, as Simon suggests part room interaction, but simply also how ' close to the edge of the seat' we want to be. The sheer increase in resolution/ inter node silence DR brings isn't for everyone, as much as some prefer olive 52/135s. Personally having lived with all above, full chain DR delivers a maturity and particularly musicality not to forget, I now couldn't live without . ATB Peter

PS. MDS my reference to 'the old dog' was referring to , when we spoke on the phone, remember?

 

Yes, of course, Peter. And he's doing very well, albeit getting very muddy in this awful weather we are suffering at the moment.  Hope you're not exposed to flooding in your neck of the woods, though I guess your earthing spike is nice and moist these days!  

Posted on: 11 February 2014 by 911gt3r

Thing is MDS, there is no hardness to DR, quite the opposite !? Don't understand...............

Your post crept up before mine, but we are experiencing a water logged garden, but thankfully not suffering beyond that , and yes the spur is smiles all round!  ATB Peter

Posted on: 11 February 2014 by Ikoun
Originally Posted by MDS:

This pure speculation on my part, but I wonder whether the slight hardness I heard with the 555PSDR in my system, and seemingly experienced by one or two other contributors, is possibly Naim 'voicing' the DR to suit its speakers. In other words, optimised for the BMR, and conventional tweeters, like the metallic ones like on my Electras, accentuate the DR's higher top end resolution? Just a guess.

 

Also, I think Felix might be onto something about the pre-amps used. Having recently tried a 252 in my system it struck me as having, among other attributes, less top end 'sparkle' than my 282 delivers so the 282 might be contributing too. 

 

MDS

Well pointed but in this matter, i'd rather go on the "room" effect. The presentation between the 282 and the 252 is different, but one or the other should not be that hard. Maybe the placement of your speaker could be on table while experiencing... maybe warming - 555 is known to take time to settle...?

Posted on: 11 February 2014 by MDS
Originally Posted by 911gt3r:

Thing is MDS, there is no hardness to DR, quite the opposite !? Don't understand...............

Your post crept up before mine, but we are experiencing a water logged garden, but thankfully not suffering beyond that , and yes the spur is smiles all round!  ATB Peter

Hi, Peter. I'm not suggesting there is harshness in the DR. My (limited) experience of it on the 555PS and SC was that it reduced the noise floor and has higher resolution at the top end.  I suspect it is those characteristics which expose traits elsewhere in my system whereas the nonDR 555PS with its softer top end mitigates those traits and the end result is a more pleasing overall result. System matching and synergy is all important, of course.  

Posted on: 11 February 2014 by Ikoun
Originally Posted by MDS:
Hi, Peter. I'm not suggesting there is harshness in the DR. My (limited) experience of it on the 555PS and SC was that it reduced the noise floor and has higher resolution at the top end.  I suspect it is those characteristics which expose traits elsewhere in my system whereas the nonDR 555PS with its softer top end mitigates those traits and the end result is a more pleasing overall result.

I had the same feeling at the swaping of the 2 PS. Considering i also changed few other things on my system (Fraim arrived) and in my room (grew 20m2), i took time to take the best of my system and moving the speakers was a part of the job. After burning in and fine tuning, i never reached the result i have now and i am sure the "DR" has a big influence.

Posted on: 11 February 2014 by mikapoh
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

 

But - I really love my own humble HiCapDR into my 282 with analogue and digi sources 

 

Simon

 

Yeah, the same love I have for my Hicap DR into my Nac202. It seems to be a marriage made in heaven.

 

 

 

 

Posted on: 11 February 2014 by Engelbert
Originally Posted by mikapoh:
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

 

But - I really love my own humble HiCapDR into my 282 with analogue and digi sources 

 

Simon

 

Yeah, the same love I have for my Hicap DR into my Nac202. It seems to be a marriage made in heaven.

You would likely notice a sizeable deterioration in sound quality if you substituted a non-DR HiCap for your HiCapDR.

 

I have heard this particular comparison and the difference in sound quality is not minor.

 

Personally, I'm a little cautious about some of the posts above that rate non-DR kit as offering superior sound quality to DR kit. It does seem rather odd to me...... But everyone to their own. 

 

Engelbert

Posted on: 11 February 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Mikapoh - good to hear from you and your 202. 

Engelbert, I can't remember if I stated this in this thread or elsewhere, but I have definitely found in all my home demos that DR on the NACs is significantly superior to to non DR.

The specific point from the OP was the preference for the 555PS on the NDAC as opposed to 555PS(DR) on the NDAC - and it that I certainly agree with. 

The 555PSDR made the NDAC sound more like the NDS, and that is not what I prefer. The original 555PS on the NDAC has a nice rounded analogue feel with lovely rhythm and pace which for me is to die for. (with the right digi sources)

Simon

Posted on: 16 February 2014 by Christopher_M

Still not tried it MDS?!

 

C.

Posted on: 16 February 2014 by MDS
Originally Posted by Christopher_M:

Still not tried it MDS?!

 

C.

Not yet, Chris. My dealer's the one who sorts out the burndies and hi-line etc in my system (not sure I'd do it right). He's offered to pop round to give it a try but we've not sorted a date and time yet. 

Posted on: 16 February 2014 by Christopher_M

Oh. When he comes round and makes the two minute change, I think you'll find it's like Pompey winning the FA Cup again, only better.

 

Chris

Posted on: 25 February 2014 by Christopher_M

Can't be long now.....

 

C.

Posted on: 25 February 2014 by MDS
Originally Posted by Christopher_M:

Can't be long now.....

 

C.

The weekend beckons, Chris.

Posted on: 25 February 2014 by Christopher_M

Ok, just can't believe you've missed what, to me, looks like the obvious place to try the 555ps of whatever hue! 

 

Chris

Posted on: 02 March 2014 by MDS

Well Chris, with the help of my dealer and his cable-dressing skills I’ve given your suggestion of trying the CDX2/555PS combination this weekend.  

 

The CDX2/555PS gave a creditable performance as I think it should for a source which, if the Hi-line is included, is getting on for £11k. I think many would be very pleased with it.  There was speed, weighty bottom-end, and the CDX2’s signature ‘boogie’.  But…..

 

Compared to my CDX2.2/XP5XS/nDAC/555PS combination, the soundstage was very noticeably smaller both in width and especially depth.  It was also a harder sound. Not unpleasant but I missed the airy almost analogue signature that I think comes from the nDAC.  Although detailed, not as much as I normally enjoy. The bass, though weighty, didn’t have the bounce and lovely ‘chocolately’ flavour of my four-box source. The CDX2/555PS seems to concentrate on a few aspects of the performance in a rather flatter way whereas my four-box set-up seems to draw out many more strands and presents vocals with better resolution and much more space around the singer.  Indeed, I would say my previous four-box source when I used two XP5XSs outperformed the CDX2/555PS combination.  

 

So what conclusions do I draw from this? I would offer the following:

 

1. Affirmation of Naim’s stated upgrade path. The nDAC is an upgrade for the CDX2.2; PSUs are an upgrade on both CDX2 and nDAC; combining these upgrades works;  

 

2. My dealer’s advice has, once again, proven itself invaluable in piecing together my CD source;

 

3. My four-box CD source is very, very fine indeed and it would probably take the insertion of a CD555 head unit (gulp) on my 555PS to significantly better it;

 

4. The nDAC is fantastic VFM given what it brings to the party;

 

5. In the light of 3, my best upgrade path probably lies in the amplification; 

 

and finally

 

6. My system currently sounds so good to my ears that I’m going to put aside thoughts of upgrades for a while and sit back,  play loads and loads of music and simply enjoy it.   

 

MDS

 

Posted on: 02 March 2014 by Christopher_M

Thanks for trying it. Pleased to hear the two box, £11K source was not too shabby.

 

Chris

Posted on: 02 March 2014 by 911gt3r
Originally Posted by MDS:

Well Chris, with the help of my dealer and his cable-dressing skills I’ve given your suggestion of trying the CDX2/555PS combination this weekend.  

 

The CDX2/555PS gave a creditable performance as I think it should for a source which, if the Hi-line is included, is getting on for £11k. I think many would be very pleased with it.  There was speed, weighty bottom-end, and the CDX2’s signature ‘boogie’.  But…..

 

Compared to my CDX2.2/XP5XS/nDAC/555PS combination, the soundstage was very noticeably smaller both in width and especially depth.  It was also a harder sound. Not unpleasant but I missed the airy almost analogue signature that I think comes from the nDAC.  Although detailed, not as much as I normally enjoy. The bass, though weighty, didn’t have the bounce and lovely ‘chocolately’ flavour of my four-box source. The CDX2/555PS seems to concentrate on a few aspects of the performance in a rather flatter way whereas my four-box set-up seems to draw out many more strands and presents vocals with better resolution and much more space around the singer.  Indeed, I would say my previous four-box source when I used two XP5XSs outperformed the CDX2/555PS combination.  

 

So what conclusions do I draw from this? I would offer the following:

 

1. Affirmation of Naim’s stated upgrade path. The nDAC is an upgrade for the CDX2.2; PSUs are an upgrade on both CDX2 and nDAC; combining these upgrades works;  

 

2. My dealer’s advice has, once again, proven itself invaluable in piecing together my CD source;

 

3. My four-box CD source is very, very fine indeed and it would probably take the insertion of a CD555 head unit (gulp) on my 555PS to significantly better it;

 

4. The nDAC is fantastic VFM given what it brings to the party;

 

5. In the light of 3, my best upgrade path probably lies in the amplification; 

 

and finally

 

6. My system currently sounds so good to my ears that I’m going to put aside thoughts of upgrades for a while and sit back,  play loads and loads of music and simply enjoy it.   

 

MDS

 

........and good for you, great place to be !  ATB Peter

Posted on: 02 March 2014 by MDS
Originally Posted by Christopher_M:

Thanks for trying it. Pleased to hear the two box, £11K source was not too shabby.

 

Chris

As you said, Chris, it cost nothing to try it. Experimentation in this game can pay dividends as I found when it was suggested l try a Powerline on the Napsc feeding my 282.

Posted on: 02 March 2014 by MDS
Originally Posted by 911gt3r:
Originally Posted by MDS:

 

........and good for you, great place to be !  ATB Peter

Thanks, Peter.  I'm resisting the temptation to listen to the 500 stuff (555PS aside) for the time being on the basis that ignorance is bliss!