Moving my files to portable player

Posted by: WInnes on 09 February 2014

I know.... there are several threads in this forum regarding the issue of converting and metatagging the NIAM format *.wav files. However.. I want to start a new thread with almost the same topic as I find it hard to believe that the current options are the best way to go. I honestly think that we consumers deserve better.

 

Since I have bought my Naim system all my portable audio devices have been obsolete due to unsatisfactory sound quality – I have been spoiled by NAIM and thank you very much for that.

 

So now I have decided to buy an Astell & Kern AK 120Titan and it is an extremely nice device. However – moving my music from NAIM to the device is painstakingly slow and difficult.

 

For best audio quality I rip and store my music files in *.wav on my NAIM userve. As the audio quality is very dear to me I have no interest in ripping in FLAC. But my Astell & Kern device do not read the NAIM Metadata when transferring the *.wav files*. So in order to move the music from my NAIM userve to my Astell & Kern I have to go through a looooooooong process:

 

  1. Selecting the individual files I need to transfer
  2. Copy them manually from my userve to my computer (sloooooow)
  3. Converting the files into FLAC format with external audio converter. I am using dBPoweramp (even Slooooooooowweeeeeeer)
  4. Re-tagging them manually. to help me out I have written a small piece of software that will metatag the new FLACfiles according to filestructure (but still very sloooooooooooooow)
  5. Copying the files from my computer to my Astell and Kern AK 120 via A&K USB 2.0 (sloooooooooow)

 

All in all a PAINSTAKINGLY slow and troublesome process when you bear in mind that these are digital data and processes that could be handled digitally. This is clearly something that would be fixed in a more mature technology. After all... using digital audiofiles on different platform is one of the major drivers for developing the technology in the first place

 

NAIM have ALMOST seen the light. With the latest update to firmware 1.7a I now get a LQ library with tagged *.mp3 files as well as my MQ library with tagged *.wav files. And I also get the option to convert my current *.wav library to *.FLAC and to rip in FLAC format in the future. But I want my *.wav library intact AND a library of tagged *.FLAC files as well just as with the *.mp3 files

 

So after a long fly-in here goes my question/request.

Would it be possible for NAIM to provide one of the following:

 

Or

Or

 

The last option is the most fantastic and clever solution, but would probably be difficult to achieve as it requires two companies to agree on funding, support etc etc. but maaaaaan imagine if I could just move my files without converting, metatagging etc etc… wouldn’t that be great?!

 

I am very well aware that there is no such thing as “just making a piece of software”… But for all of us users that also like high quality audio when on the move this is a big problem (look at different forums), and if NAIM could be the first to assist its users with a clever way to do this it would make us very happy…. 

 

best regards Martin... a happy NAIM customer

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by KRM

Interesting post.

 

I have the old 1tb UnitiServe and don't really want to clutter it up with an MP3 folder. I would much prefer to locate it on my NAS, but I don't think that's possible.

 

To be honest, I've given up listening to collection on the go. I tend to use Spotify to discover new stuff on my phone. It has pretty much all I need and the sound quality is ok.

 

Keith

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by WInnes

I know where you are coming from Keith... until now I also had given up on HQ audio on the move until I got my A&K 120.. You should try it out.... it is a completely different world. If only the handling of the audiofiles were clever and not as now - down right stupid.
But that aside... Selecting the location for MP3 files is definately something that would make sense... I imagine a piece of software where you decide which fileformats you want redundant and where on your system you would like it to be placed... Just as if it had been a word document etc...

 

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by Dan43

I too wish to keep everything .WAV and also keep all the metadata. The LQ MP3 folder works well, although the odd album doesn't import into iTunes even though the MP3s are fine? Your suggestion for the FALC equivalent may hold merit so long as all the metadata can stay with the FLAC outside the US software.

 

Those that are converting to FLAC for the easier metadata manipulation then transcoding back to .WAV on playback have converted their entire US rips to FLAC and have noted all the metadata stays intact, but I suspect once those FLACs are exported out of the US control then that gets lost/removed, so I assume all the extra tagging the US does stays inside the US unit itself as it doesn't seem to be available once you copy the .WAV or FLAC to another device.

 

The new Sony portable Hi-Res units both play .WAV up to 24/192 according to the info on each unit.

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by WInnes

But still... this should not be rocket sciense.... adding metadatato a FLAC file from a DB file made up by the US... come on... it is making somekind of lookup function that connects empty metadata tags in the FLAC file with the database structure from the US....

 

As it is right now it is a bit equivalent to me having to re-type my MS words documents if I needed to move them from one computer to another... Off course it could be made if they decided to go that way.... the only thing they should do was to copy the efforts made for *.mp3 to FLAC.

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by Jan-Erik Nordoen

Why not just rerip your CDs in FLAC on your computer, using dBPoweramp, then move them onto the A&K?

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by WInnes
Originally Posted by Jan-Erik Nordoen:

Why not just rerip your CDs in FLAC on a computer, using dBPoweramp, for example ?

For several reasons... first off all re-ripping +1800 albums is not something that you just do... it takes time and effort that I would much rather use for other activites.

But more important is - why on earth should I re rip albums that is already digitalized on a hard drive ? again... what you are suggesting is that i re-type a word document, that I would like to save in PDF instead of just moving the file and saving in another format. It simplly does not make any sense ....

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by Dan43

Sometimes these things appear simple but can be quite difficult. I have to merge text files and other simple looking file structures for my work to parse metadata into other software so everything can be 'seen' and understood correctly (this is for the AV industry) so that we can continue onwards.

 

It really isn't as simple as it appears to have everything populated firstly in words/text and then in columns so that the next piece of software can see it in the manner it needs to to work correctly, we have lost days merging files to make these things work correctly.

 

All I can say is try it, taking information from two or three originally utilised software packages (and the way they individually create and understand the information) and then make it available to another piece of software, a fourth option, that has to consolidate so that those original three sets of data merge into one, displaying the same info in the same manner, it is a PITA.

 

How the US files can be consolidated and parsed across so they can be read in non-US optimised hardware/software only NAIM themselves can elaborate on.

 

All I am saying is could be a lot harder than you imagine, no matter how simple those text files appear in isolation.

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by WInnes

well Dan... as I said... I am very well aware that "there is no such thing as just making a piece of software", but again... this is data in textform and none of the data needs to change,it  just needs to be pointed towards another location in a filetype that already have the option for metadata... it can not be THAT hard?!

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by garyi

Seems like you like making life hard op.

 

use the naims inbuilt conversion, convert. Copy to your new thingy.

 

 

if its sloooowwwer, then that is an issue of your network.

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by WInnes
Originally Posted by garyi:

Seems like you like making life hard op.

 

use the naims inbuilt conversion, convert. Copy to your new thingy.

 

 

if its sloooowwwer, then that is an issue of your network.

Off course that is an option, but if you read the initial post I want to keep my files in wav format, and the way it is now NAIM does not allow me to convert the files to another location but only to overwrite tha wav files. If they gave me the option to do that all my problems would be solved. actually it is one of my suggestions

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by Dan43
Originally Posted by garyi:

Seems like you like making life hard op.

 

use the naims inbuilt conversion, convert. Copy to your new thingy.

 

 

if its sloooowwwer, then that is an issue of your network.

I don't think thats the issue, it is the fact all the US created metadata doesn't carry across with it once outside the US itself, I think thats the main op problem.

Also the conversion in US to FLAC from WAV takes a while and then those WAVs go into the recycle bin or trash, those original WAVs really should be saved as a back-up before the conversion so all those original rips are still available, and could be re-installed back into the US once the converted FLACs are removed.

 

I think :-)

 

Edit : leaving you two complete libraries, one in WAV and one FLAC, which is what I am thinking of doing

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by Jan-Erik Nordoen

Slowness is down to the U/S, as conversion is given low priority. Also, it's WAV or FLAC. You can't have both. One would think that a simple software adjsutment could allow both to coexist on the U/S, i.e., WAV on the proceted partition of the U/S and FLAC in the downloads folder.

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by Jan-Erik Nordoen
Originally Posted by Dan43:

Also the conversion in US to FLAC from WAV takes a while and then those WAVs go into the recycle bin or trash, those original WAVs really should be saved as a back-up before the conversion so all those original rips are still available, and could be re-installed back into the US once the converted FLACs are removed.

 

I think :-)

 

Edit : leaving you two complete libraries, one in WAV and one FLAC, which is what I am thinking of doing

That should work. You would need to use the "Move" function, which is not without issues.

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by WInnes
Originally Posted by Dan43:
Originally Posted by garyi:

Seems like you like making life hard op.

 

use the naims inbuilt conversion, convert. Copy to your new thingy.

 

 

if its sloooowwwer, then that is an issue of your network.

I don't think thats the issue, it is the fact all the US created metadata doesn't carry across with it once outside the US itself, I think thats the main op problem.

Also the conversion in US to FLAC from WAV takes a while and then those WAVs go into the recycle bin or trash, those original WAVs really should be saved as a back-up before the conversion so all those original rips are still available, and could be re-installed back into the US once the converted FLACs are removed.

 

I think :-)

 

I agree Dan.... and also.. my post might be a consequence of me not knowing enough about programming, but when I look in the metadatafiles that US attach to each folder it appears to be straight forward text, and I simply do not see why you should not be able to move the text from one location to another in an automatic process

 

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by WInnes
Originally Posted by Jan-Erik Nordoen:

Slowness is down to the U/S, as conversion is given low priority. Also, it's WAV or FLAC. You can't have both. One would think that a simple software adjsutment could allow both to coexist on the U/S, i.e., WAV on the proceted partition of the U/S and FLAC in the downloads folder.

Exactly!

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by Bart
Originally Posted by Dan43:

 

 

Those that are converting to FLAC for the easier metadata manipulation then transcoding back to .WAV on playback have converted their entire US rips to FLAC and have noted all the metadata stays intact, but I suspect once those FLACs are exported out of the US control then that gets lost/removed, so I assume all the extra tagging the US does stays inside the US unit itself as it doesn't seem to be available once you copy the .WAV or FLAC to another device.

Your suspicions and assumptions are not right re the metadata in the converted flacs.

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by WInnes
Originally Posted by WInnes:
Originally Posted by Jan-Erik Nordoen:

Slowness is down to the U/S, as conversion is given low priority. Also, it's WAV or FLAC. You can't have both. One would think that a simple software adjsutment could allow both to coexist on the U/S, i.e., WAV on the proceted partition of the U/S and FLAC in the downloads folder.

Exactly!

or even better... that you could place the location of the FLAC files on an external portable hdd (usb drive)

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by Bart
Originally Posted by Dan43:
 

Also the conversion in US to FLAC from WAV takes a while and then those WAVs go into the recycle bin or trash, those original WAVs really should be saved as a back-up before the conversion so all those original rips are still available, and could be re-installed back into the US once the converted FLACs are removed.

 

1.  "A while" in my case was overnight for 300+ rips.  I did not find that too inconvenient.

2.  One already has a backup of all of the .wav rips if one is, as recommended, backing up their uServe.  That is all that's necessary to re-intall if so desired.  I would not need the unit to make a second backup when I have one already.  And when I also have backups of the backups, allowing for the possibility that a single backup drive could fail.

 

And I too agree that a few more options, such as putting the flac or LQ copies somewhere else, and having both flac and wav, would be nice and seemingly not very technically challenging or sound-quality-lowering.

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by Jan-Erik Nordoen

Hi Bart,

 

You've converted to FLACs ?

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by WInnes
Originally Posted by Bart:
Originally Posted by Dan43:
 

Also the conversion in US to FLAC from WAV takes a while and then those WAVs go into the recycle bin or trash, those original WAVs really should be saved as a back-up before the conversion so all those original rips are still available, and could be re-installed back into the US once the converted FLACs are removed.

 

1.  "A while" in my case was overnight for 300+ rips.  I did not find that too inconvenient.

2.  One already has a backup of all of the .wav rips if one is, as recommended, backing up their uServe.  That is all that's necessary to re-intall if so desired.  I would not need the unit to make a second backup when I have one already.  And when I also have backups of the backups, allowing for the possibility that a single backup drive could fail.

 

And I too agree that a few more options, such as putting the flac or LQ copies somewhere else, and having both flac and wav, would be nice and seemingly not very technically challenging or sound-quality-lowering.

I have a backup of a backup as well ... 

 

What I am asking is that one of the advatages of having digitalized music is portability and thus conversion with intact metadata should be relatively integrated in a mature technology. If only I could get into the software of the Astell&Kern I would pay a guy to write a lookup function to read metadata in NAIM format... then I would not need to do anything than copy my files from one unit to another..... that would be so sweet... no lengthy conversion, just drag and drop...

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by Bart
Originally Posted by Jan-Erik Nordoen:

Hi Bart,

 

You've converted to FLACs ?

Yes -- I have a backup of the wav rips but the primary Store is now .flac   And I transcode to .wav for playback.  It sounds just fine to me!

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by Bart

WInnes, I think that the root of your "complaint" if you will is the way Naim store metadata for wav rips.  That's a fair criticism, and I suspect how we got here is a rather long and winding road.  Including Naim's conclusion at the time that wav sounded better than flac, and I would suspect, their prediction that most of us would use Naim servers in a bit of a vacuum, and exclusively for rips of our own cd's.  As high quality downloads for purchase became available, it was a while before the "Downloads folder" feature appeared.  I would offer that Naim have not quite kept up with the features desired on home servers in 2014.

 

That said, what they do do, they do really well.

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by WInnes
Originally Posted by Bart:

WInnes, I think that the root of your "complaint" if you will is the way Naim store metadata for wav rips.  That's a fair criticism, and I suspect how we got here is a rather long and winding road.  Including Naim's conclusion at the time that wav sounded better than flac, and I would suspect, their prediction that most of us would use Naim servers in a bit of a vacuum, and exclusively for rips of our own cd's.  As high quality downloads for purchase became available, it was a while before the "Downloads folder" feature appeared.  I would offer that Naim have not quite kept up with the features desired on home servers in 2014.

 

That said, what they do do, they do really well.

Hi Bart.... do not get me wrong... this is not a complaint regarding NAIM, but a wish for some added functionality... regarding the NAIM setup i have heard a lot of stuff and nothing have come close to the NAIM way of doing things.

 

I am just flagging the fact that some of us also listens to HQ audio while on the move and for this NAIM have some unused potential that could give them an even better market position if they pursued it... imagine if they were the ones not only to make the best sound but also where the ones that gave their customers the best opportunities to transfer ripped files to mobile devices while keeping the high standard for metadata that they do on the hifi components

 

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by Dan43
Originally Posted by Bart:
Originally Posted by Dan43:

 

 

Those that are converting to FLAC for the easier metadata manipulation then transcoding back to .WAV on playback have converted their entire US rips to FLAC and have noted all the metadata stays intact, but I suspect once those FLACs are exported out of the US control then that gets lost/removed, so I assume all the extra tagging the US does stays inside the US unit itself as it doesn't seem to be available once you copy the .WAV or FLAC to another device.

Your suspicions and assumptions are not right re the metadata in the converted flacs.

 

Just looking in the folders we have the .xml, .log and .txt, .jpg for album art, should have just looked for myself. Might dig some more to see what could be done, although this has been well covered many many times.

 

Thanks Bart.

 

 

 

Posted on: 09 February 2014 by Jan-Erik Nordoen
Originally Posted by Bart:
 And I transcode to .wav for playback. 

Hi Bart,

 

Are you transcoding on the UnitiServe or the NDS ?