DAC V1 server or source agnostic?

Jude - asynchronous transfer via USB has many more variables associated with it than compared to the simpler specified SPDIF - as well as many more options for RFI and side effects (quite similar to Ethernet in that regard) as well as variables from  the responsiveness of the sender to the half duplex messaging (USB 3 can go full duplex) - therefore I would expect far more source variance 'opportunities' with USB than with the simpler open loop SPDIF.

Simon

Worth taking a look at the computer audiophile pocket server, SOTM, Aurender, etc to see what people have done to modify the USB output. Then there are all the software options. I'd say the NAS has more to do with how much storage space you need than SQ.  I'm a big Mac fan, but for music, I experimented with the Mac route and found it much more limiting than something linux or windows based. Actually came down to the fact that all of the software options were fussy once you departed from iTunes, which can't play hi res music and requires additional (fussy in my experience) software to output bit perfect data. I think if you have a straight ahead implementation of iTunes with local music storage it would be great, but beyond that, I'd look at other options.  NB - plenty here love the mac mini as a source, so this is just my experience.

I agree with Mutterback, I quite like Macs - I have a couple - but for audio they can be awkward compared to PCs if you don't want to change the audio. First off I have needed to disable the default 64bit per stereo sample audio subsystem - and force it to go into integer mode. Then you need to exclusively assign the required audio to USB etc if you want to go for un altered audio. Perhaps others have found better ways of preserving digital audio integrity in Macs? . But for audio I use homemade Linux or PCs and use a Mac as a control point / client.

Simon

There is a hypothesis that processor workload can somehow affect the DAC at the other end of the USB cable. At least some processors and some DACs. 

Before spending loads of money, why not listen to your mac mini just playing music and use the performance monitor to see how hard the processor etc. is working. Unlikely to be very hard. Then run loads of processes so that you run the CPU usage up to 100%. Can you hear a difference? If you can't, it's very unlikely imo that you have a problem you need to solve.

Similarly try listening with it on top of your V1 and as far away as the cable will allow. Radiated EMI/RFI obeys the inverse square law, so if these are an issue you should hear a difference.

But, otoh, if you do hear a difference, then I would ask whether a pimped mini and USB DAC is the way you want to go? You'll need to spend quite a lot on your mini to get SSDs, fancy power supplies etc - mightn't this money be better spent on upgrading the V1 to a network player?

Thanks very much chaps,

Lots of valuable information and food for thought.  

Some conclusions:

SPDIF is simple and effective compared to Ethernet or USB.

Macs can be limiting (although for me, this is not an issue right now as I do not need to store my    music remotely and I am happy with Audivirna which gets around the Macs OS audio quirks like needing to engage integer mode, etc).  

I can also experiment with positioning and load with the suggestions given and research other servers.

So, for now I am OK from a set up point if view and the sound is amazing.

The decision of course is what next (and what to invest/plan for apart from music itself)?  (OK, I know that I do not need to do anything, too)

On that front it seems that it is not necessarily best to stay with a server/computer and DAC approach.

However, it also seems to me that there is not much difference between a computer/server and DAC approach versus a network streamer approach (if you want to get the most from either option).  This makes me think of what else does a network player bring to the party other than the ability  to have a system with large storage capability via a NAS?

The approach that leaps out to me is to use a server with with SPDIF feeding a DAC.

Jude 

Jude - when i was going through the Mac n Dac stage a few years back (albeit via Firewire) i found the following useful (using a Mac mini as my source)

Install as much RAM as you can. Disable all other activities (spotlight etc) and just run what you need to play music. As with USB, disabling the power feed into the Firewire cable at the computer source was beneficial. You're already running a decent music player so that will have dealt with the MAC OS audio settings.

James

James,  Thanks for your response.

I have installed more RAM (16B as it was a good deal), disabled the infra red receiver, switched off bluetooth and wifi.  I now connect with an ethernet lead to the Apple Time Capsule for internet radio, remote control via iDevices and headless operation from other macs.  I have also switched off unused services in the software and close down Finder when not needed.

Not sure how to disable the power in the USB out as I am guessing that they are high power outputs and unlike the low power USB connections available for example in Mac keyboards.

It is interesting that you that you say that you used to have a Mac n Dac set up.  Do you still have it or have moved onto something else?

Jude 

Hi Jude - system changes in profile 

Have a look at the IFI USB isolator - http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/iUSB.html

James

Jude, another simple check I just remembered is to look at the system profiler and to see what else is running on the USB bus that you are using. Different USB slots on macs share the same bus with some other services - like the facetime camera, bluetooth, etc. Sounds like you've turned off a lot of these other services, but sometimes can be as easy as plugging the usb cable into another slot.

Thanks James, very interesting indeed.  Not sure whether you use this?

 Also, I see from your profile that you moved from the Mac n DAC to a Naim streamer.  What was the reason? (if you don't my me asking) 

Jude

Thanks @mutterback.

Checked this out and there is nothing running on USB (I've only got the USB lead to the V1, anyway).

The system always sound great, I just want to know whether effort and funds should be spent on the Mac or a different set up altogether in the future,i.e.:

a) Better Mini server server and DAC or

b) NAS over ethernet to a Streamer or

c) Server over SPDIF to a DAC

Yes, I could try these out at my dealer, but just wanted to get some background on folks that have made or considered this transition.

Cheers

Jude 

Jude, my advice is get a dedicated streamer with or without add on DAC. It is a reliable solution, it can remain on and simply is there when I want to enjoy my audio.

Computer audio is fun, and can be very flexible, but ultimately when I want to listen to music / plays etc I just want it to work without needing to consider anything computer related. I have computer audio in the study, and it is not as glitch free or as consistent as my Naim streamer.

Simon

Jude - i don't use the IFI myself but i know a few who do to good effect. 

My move to the Streamer - each different version of music software (i initially used Amarra then Pure Music) sounded different (even though bit perfect test files were passed to the DAC without modification) and at the time Pure Music was a tad buggy and as Simon mentions it got to the point where i was fiddling about too much rather than listening to music and so i moved to into the world of UPnP and enjoyed streaming via Linn (better control point software) and then Naim (boogied better) streamers. It also meant i could move the computer completely away from the Hi-Fi. 

The Devialet is even easier. No UPnP, just an app that sits on my Mac and passes all the audio streams to the streaming board via Ethernet (or wireless if needed)

Sometimes simple is best 

Great insights Simon and James.

Seems like the options are wide open, from streaming to a one  box solution with a computer as a UPNP server, and of course anything in between.

Have to say the Devialet is simplicity and elegance personified ! it also seems to break all the rules too - SM PSU, one box, Class D?, up sampling by default. 

Simplicity  and reliability does appeal to me and in this regard an NDAC and SN2 as a foundation appeals (with either a Mini or Unitiserve via SPDIF).

Do I now dare to have demos? 

Jude 

+1E100.

MAC Mini [plain iTunes player and ripper] with the V1 has proven glitch free for 12 months. 

Even the CDS 2 was not glitch free for 12 months [in those days powered up always as recommended] and required the occasional reboot to work

ATB from George

What do you use to 'see' the macmini files? Do you need a monitor or can you use screen sharing with an iPad?

A 29 inch HP monito, and a remote MAC keyboard and [flat finger operated] mouse to control things. Works a treat 

I don't have an iPad or remote control. I just put the keyboard and mouse on a tea tray and work it from my lap and put it down when the files are selected ...

AB from George

Intriguing. Does the tea tray have roomm for a brew too?

Yes [beer or tea], and good for rolling a fag, while having a laugh on the Forum and doing emails!

ATB from George

Thanks Jude. It's my next step when my son's Macmini needs an upgrade, which given his penchant for high end games is probably quite soon!

George: don't get tea/beer in your keyboard!

Hi to everybody !

I was a fan of "simple music servers" ( I own a Superuniti myself) then I went to a music fair and discovered the flexibility of computer music and so I built myself a fanless PC and bought a DAC V1 to feed my pre. At the beginning I was not satisfied with the sound (Superuniti was somehow better) but after some experimenting with the hardware (PC and USB cables), the SO (Win 7), the Software (Jriver and Foobar) now I cannot listen to my beloved Superuniti any more.

The last thing I'm experimenting now is a software that makes room correction: Dirac Live. I'm very satisfied with it (this is maybe because I have a very difficult listening room): the bass is more controlled and the higher frequencies are much more precise. So in my opinion the PC alternative is surely not plug and play at the beginning but sound quality with a good PC setup is, in my opinion, really better than a music player and really much more flexible and easy to control than a music server/player.

One last thing for Simon (I appreciate when he writes on the forum because he is very technical and friendly to everybody): I don't agree with you that a PC is more difficult to control. With a good player (such as Jriver or Foobar) and a Tablet (apple, android, windows; the SO doesn't matter) the playback is really easy, rock solid, flawless and you can have:

- better music queues

- use your big HD television for album art, author history, playback information  ... (Look for example at the amazing "theater mode" of Jriver).

Good music to everybody, Andrea

Hi Fosfocreatina, no worries - each to their own. I do use JRiver to control my streamer sometimes - but usually I use NStream. I guess with a streamer you can chose 'computer audio' or streaming - which ever you prefer at a particular point in time.

Simon