Can Naim Recommend Some Ethernet & Switch Set-Ups ??

Yes Linn do a good FAQ and Naim could do well to add something like this to the forum. As you've found it's not rocket science and simple is often best.

How are you finding the NDX ?

Mike - I found the little Netgear switches and their PSUs electrically very noisy. I have banished my little Netgear switch (GS105) now to the storage drawer that I was using for NDX - and have replaced with Cisco 2960 switch. My RF noise issues are now gone. Perhaps I was unlucky but it was a real PITA - glad it is working out for you.

Simon, yes I had a ponder about just that,  but based on www comments & practically zero negatives on the Linn forum, I went with it.

How did the noise make itself known to you,  I've tried various things using the NAT05 off station & even dug out an old SW set from the graveyard box. I am not finding anything untoward, no warbling or hiss from anything.  

All the power cables are foil screened & have additional ferrite,  ditto the ethernet's Cat7, foil pair screens & overall braid plus 80ohms @ 100M fitted on each end of both.   

The FM antenna coax is about 1.5m away at its closest point & it too has 275ohms @ 100M fitted at the NAT input.

I was looking around tonite for a linear PS,  I have also the Synology, phone, HH & Netgear all on 12v SMPS's,  All but the Synology are on a separate ring - the Synology is on the hifi radial.  

But if I could find a single linear unit to supply all 4 it would be great (I thought). Then when you get into cost & size,  its a rethink.   

Hi James,  we are getting along just fine - the NDX & me that is

I sold my CDX2 about 4 weeks ago so it’s a matter of memory of how it used to sound. Compared to the CDX2 the NDX is more refined, smoother & with some material has more detail.  I say some material because I find it depends on the recording & the content; it’s hard to hear differences with heavily process material, but if the recording is not processed or overdubbed it is so much better with separation, space & air with very clear positioning giving wider & more depth distance to the stereo sound staging. But with the CDX2 I have some recordings that place the soloist very close to the listener, the NDX is not so pronounced, maybe in front of the speaker wall instead of in middle of the room.

Some instruments sound more accurate, but again it’s a matter of preference.  e.g. listening to a solo piano on the CDX2 seemed like I was sitting at the piano & could hear/feel the individual string vibration, the NDX is like I am now sitting in the audience a few metres away.

The changes in volume of the source material is more pronounced with NDX,  it seems the quiet passages are quieter & loud is louder.   It is also more pronounced in the volume differences between albums, changing an album invariably involves a small volume adjustment more so than I had noticed on CD.

I’ve experimented with FLAC vs WAV & I’ve settled on WAV – K.I.S.S.

I like dBpoweramp for ripping,  noting the new discussions over the pros & cons of UnitiServe vs a ripper.  But I ain’t going down that way. 

All in all I am delighted, but I’m disappointed with the availability/choice & the price (!!!) of hi-def downloads. 

Hi Mike, I found the GS105 connected Ethernet patch leads and the powercord to the PSU radiated. This in turn coupled into my FM aerial lead and was causing intermodulation noise on my NAT03, NAT05 and Cyrus tuners. Additionally there was a slight hardness/brittleness  to the audio from my Naim non tuner sources. All leads were physically separated.

i choked the powercord, aerial and the Ethernet leads and It helped slightly but was still there and became really irritating. It got to the point that I powered off the Netgear switch when I wanted to enjoy some serious FM listening on BBCR3 or late night BBCR2. I then looked for an alternate solution.

it could be Netgear have now fixed the issues. I have come across related issues in my professional life with Netgear PSUs affecting performance on certain of their ADSL routers, through RF noise but seemingly addressed / improved with later serial numbers

Simon

Great stuff Mike - it's a great unit and will give a bit more as it settles in. I've listened to so much more music since going the computer audio / streaming route which is what it's all about. I use the GS108 switch for my audio network - mine was old enough to come with a linear plug top supply and after trying 2 other supplies (a switching one from my spare GS105 and a hefty linear lab supply) i kept the original one. Saying that all of my network kit sits well away from the Hi-Fi and is kept in the study out of the way.

James

Hi Simon,  thanks for info.

I've been boning up on this over the last few days & have concluded that SMPS's can couple switching noise back onto the mains that can cause problems typically in the 30 to 100 MHz range.

So assuming te problem - if present - is switch coupling back to the mains, I think what I have already may be reducing something with this.

1: The power cable to the 4 way power strip is Supra LoRad (shielded) 3 core 1.5mm

I have added a ferrite at the wall plug end,  not too sure what a ferrite does on a shield, but it will not harm anything. 

2: I have extra ferrites on the DC wires from the SMPS's;

2a: Synology NAS has a DC power cable with an installed ferrite block at the inlet end, I've added an extra with 3 cable turns around it at the SMPS end.  

2b:  NetGear GS105 has one I fitted with 5 cable turns around it at the SMPS end

Re testing for noise:  I've tried to hear noise changes from the NAT-05 when tuned to R3 (I get a super-quiet no hiss R3) fortunately this morning they some quiet stuff playing & some long almost silent periods. I then pulled (switched off)  & re-plugged (switched on) the Netgear, Synology & the 2x BT SMPS’s.  I could not hear any change or click or anything.

I tried the same with the NDX playing quiet material, pulling only the BT SMPS's, nothing.  I paid attention to tonal changes, hardening sound & such like,  nothing. 

I then had the TV tuned to a station showing a fixed “back at 6pm” black background screen. I could not see flashes or anything that happened to coincide when the SMPS’s got pulled. 

So until I can find or someone can show me some other way to detect whatever might be present,  I am going to sleep on this.

The Maplin 97W DC Fixed Voltage Bench Power Supply (XM21X) has shown to be an electrically silent power supply.

Default it is set to 13.8V but an internal screw allows you to turn it down to 12V, so with a multimeter and a screw driver your set to go.

It allows 5 A continous draw and 9 A surge.

I now use one on my Netgear GS108

I looked into that one Aleg,  but while surfing around on Netgear noise I found a report on a IT/network forum that said it was noisy & worse than the Netgear model he was trying to replace.

Then the size is not good for my setup & I would ideally like to power 4 x 12vDC loads from the same PSU, & I'm not so sure about cross component issues.

Mike 

those are conflicting experiences then.

i have reports that specificaly this XM21X model was very low noise.

Other models less so. Especially the XM22Y with 5 A surge seems to be more noisy.

multiple devices from one DC power supply is not easy and not recommended.

you would need a proper multi-rail with a seperate regulator per rail, something like the Paul Hynes multi-rails. Not cheap though.

Agreed Aleg,  I re-read the report & it seems the individual was looking for pure DC & saw 50/100Hz ripple,  this is by & large not an issue & not the same as the MHz SMPS noise.

I have a design for isolated outputs,  but like you said,  not cheap.  

As I stand right now,  I cannot detect anything on the system that is degrading SQ,  but am still researching. 

I am confident my shield & ferrite cables have reduced anything that may be present to minimal. So I am taking my time & this might turn into a winter time DIY project. 

Mike - i'd leave things as they are. If you hear no degradation then there is no point looking for a problem that isn't there. You've taken all the steps needed to keep your SMPS issues to a minimum so i'd be tempted to just enjoy the music 

100% James,  problem is after a working life of trouble shooting & R&D I find it hard to put this kinda stuff down. 

Back to the post subject

I'm intrigued by the Linn forum & Lejonklou & Selleri.de (svenska Linn fan forums)

LinnDocs recommend only the Netgear GS108 or GS105 & apart from some chat about the FS series reliability & how improved the GS series is & also better SQ - all are enthusiastic & no mention of noise.

Other places outside of hifi - AV & game networks - they seem to be saying the latest version with the "e" suffix called ProSafe seems to have solved the predecessors problems & no noise chat.

Mike, if it's fine in your setup, the as you say sleep on it.. Perhaps Netgear have it sorted now.. Which would be good as they are certainly a lot cheaper than 2960 I am using, but then the 2960 does give link quality stats...

All good stuff

Simon

I use TP 12V PSUs on both my GS108v3 and DSL router, which significantly dropped the noise floor from the standard wall-warts.  Originally I ran both off a Dual12 supply.  

Investigating remaining 'digititis' I subsequently found that the WiFi close to the switch/nas was a significant cause. Physically separating the DSL/WiFi by a good distance (requiring a separate PSU) brought a significant degree of naturalness and enjoyment.

You need one of these -

 Currently powering both my fibre media converter and GS105 switch.

Simon,  I looked up the 2960 switch and it is a managed switch.  Having no experience or expertise with configuring managed switches, it is probably not for me.  What about Cisco unmanaged switches like those with an internal power supply?  Would they be less noisy than those with an external power adapter?

Simon – Re “Perhaps Netgear have it sorted now”

– I think they might have done so, they now appear to use all same make SMPS’s that are different make from the 5 year old NG switch my son has  (if that is anything to go by)  

 “ … they are cheaper than 2960 I am using & give link quality stats”

- Indeed, however the 2960 is way up the spec ladder. The Netgear GS Gigabit unmanaged 5 port is directly comparable to the Cisco 100 series, both with wall wart SMPS’s.  The Cisco 100 is a little more expensive & I would guess that is because of its limited availability – i.e. it’s not an Amazon. E-Bay or PC World stock item.

There is a Netgear GS105”E” that does a bunch of stuff including link quality data & line tests. Its only around £5 more expensive.    

As an additional point of interest: I ran a continuity test on my Ethernet cable run from NAS to NDX.  Its Supra Cat7 (shielded) all thru & the shield is continuous from end to end thru the Netgear & its metal shrouded ports.  I guess that goes some way to minimize RFI issues.

40 Below – Re your TP 12V PSU dropping noise floor

I have acquired a new unit made by Emerson. The model I have is approved for medical,  IT & communications use & specified as low noise (within the EU & US stnds) It now on the Netgear GS105,  but TBH I can’t hear any difference in either FM radio or the NDX.  Anyhow, the Netgear unit has replaced a tiny-mini-wart thing that used to power the phone.  

TN, you don't *need* managed switches for our applications here, however they are good for debugging and diagnostics should you need to.

Any quality  SMPS should suffice - but clearly internal ones in a metal enclosure are better with respect to shielding RFI. According to Mike's post Netgear might have improved their more recent PSUs

Thanks Simon.